hello i have an area that im extending called the yard and doc area and i opted to include a wye so that trains can come from either direction, i obviously have a short situation and will need a reversing unit, there are several things i can do to gap and add the unit, I was thinking on several units, the issue always comes into play that you will have a short when another train enters that section and the section needs to be able to hold the entire train, i also have metal wheels on my cars, just wanted to see if anyone had a better solution to set this up so there would be no way to create a short running multiple trains. The west and east parts of the track do run back into each other eventually. The easiest way is to setup the gaps so the only way to have a short would be to have a train collision ( 2 trains cannot go through a turnout together, obviously) but in this case there are multiple turnouts involved.
Appreciate any input you may have.
Thanks,
ward
DC or DCC?
System is DCC running off MRC prodigy elite.
I had a simalier situation on mine I gapped both legs of the wye at the upper switch then put an ar1 in. Works flawlessly.
An ar15 is a gun I think I meant the reversing unit from Digitrax which is an ar1
many different ways
i always do a google image search for things like this. Click each above for more images for DCC (left) and DC (right)
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
WardR hello i have an area that im extending called the yard and doc area and i opted to include a wye so that trains can come from either direction, i obviously have a short situation and will need a reversing unit, there are several things i can do to gap and add the unit, I was thinking on several units, the issue always comes into play that you will have a short when another train enters that section and the section needs to be able to hold the entire train, i also have metal wheels on my cars, just wanted to see if anyone had a better solution to set this up so there would be no way to create a short running multiple trains. The west and east parts of the track do run back into each other eventually. The easiest way is to setup the gaps so the only way to have a short would be to have a train collision ( 2 trains cannot go through a turnout together, obviously) but in this case there are multiple turnouts involved. Appreciate any input you may have. Thanks, ward
I am not sure about DCC, but for DC I would isolate the small section between the turnout to West and turnout to Yard… That curve should be the wye track that needs reversing. This will help keep east and west the proper direction on your throttles.
j..........
If you are using DCC, see this page:
https://www.dccwiki.com/Reverse_Sections
gregc many different ways i always do a google image search for things like this. Click each above for more images for DCC (left) and DC (right)
I have the same setup as the drawing on the left, for DCC. What I don't understand is what the double gaps are for in the in the 'feed' section of track. I don't have those gaps and the wye and reverser work just fine.
Any ideas?
SouthPennWhat I don't understand is what the double gaps are for in the in the 'feed' section of track. I don't have those gaps and the wye and reverser work just fine.
The image comes from the DCCWiki Reverse Sections page. There's an explanation for the gaps on the left under Application Example 2: Reversing Triangle (Wye)
Check out the link in Betamax's post. The double gaps in the "feed" track are only needed if the turnouts are power routing (Peco Electrofrog).
Joe
SouthPenn gregc many different ways i always do a google image search for things like this. Click each above for more images for DCC (left) and DC (right) I have the same setup as the drawing on the left, for DCC. What I don't understand is what the double gaps are for in the in the 'feed' section of track. I don't have those gaps and the wye and reverser work just fine. Any ideas?
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain Like any reversing section, if you completely isolate it, you will not have any problems. A total of six gapped rails will suffice. Rich
Like any reversing section, if you completely isolate it, you will not have any problems. A total of six gapped rails will suffice.
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
trwroute richhotrain Like any reversing section, if you completely isolate it, you will not have any problems. A total of six gapped rails will suffice. Rich Now, I know next to nothing about reverse loops, but it seems that it would take more than just gapping the rails. How would you supply power to the rails inside the reverse loop and how would you switch them to match the polarity of the track outside the loop?
Ahh, Rich, now that makes sense. Sorry about that! Guess I just missed it.
Thank you everyone for all your great ideas, my question here is what i\f 2 or more trains enter the gapped areas at one time? or a train that is entering the reverse section and exiting at the same time due to a long train?
this seems to be a really good option cause the only way 2 trains could cause a short would be if they collided going into the spur, one question is this puts the entire spur area on the reverse section and causes the entire reverse section which will include a yard and dock area to switch polarity when a train enters the reverse section is this ok? would that cause any issues with locos etc..
WardRthis puts the entire spur area on the reverse section and causes the entire reverse section which will include a yard and dock area to switch polarity when a train enters the reverse section is this ok? would that cause any issues with locos etc..
Yes, it's ok. A DCC loco doesn't care if the track polarity reverses.
The only case I can think of that would require special consideration is if your yard was too large to be a single power district.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Anyone have any options if I wanted to add another power district on the spur? I will have a barge dock area and yard area; I would if possible like to give them each a district. However this would now cause issues with the reverse section if two trains entered it at opposite locations at the same time, which could happen. Thanks again for all your ideas to everyone!!!
WardRHowever this would now cause issues with the reverse section if two trains entered it at opposite locations at the same time, which could happen.
while there are exceptions, auto-reversers and reverse loops are generally not intended to allow another train to enter the section while the section is occupied.
WardR I will have a barge dock area and yard area; I would if possible like to give them each a district.
as already shown, one leg of the wye is wired as a reverse section and because a wye is typically only used to turn a locomotive, that leg is stub ended (doesn't lead anywhere) and only two sets of gaps are required to isolate that leg from the two other legs.
But a wye can certainly be used to connect a track that may rejoin the mainline. In this case, a 3rd set of gaps is needed further down that leg (farther from the wye) to create a more conventional reverse loop that is "longer than the longest train".
But if that leg of the wye does not rejoin the main, there may be no need for a 3rd set of gaps and the entire section of the railroad accessed through that leg of the wye could be a single reversing section.
This, of course, can be a problem if that section (red in figure below) is large and futher isolation (circuit breakers) is desired because the auto-reverser is designed to supply power to a single locomotive or consist. If this is the case, a reverse section "longer than the longest train" is needed, isolated with 3 sets of gaps.
greg's solution would work and the reversing section could be protected by a PSX-AR which is both an auto-reverser and a circuit breaker.
But, his diagram does not appear to reflect your specific situation.
I have attached a diagram for your particular reversing section. Since the reversing section is essentially a stub end arrangement, only two sets of gaps would be required. The yard leg of the wye becomes the reversing section. The PSX-AR would provide both auto-reversing and circuit breaker protection.
In this arrangement, two trains could simultaneously enter the wye.
Thank you for everyone’s ideas on this I appreciate it!!! I think i will go with reversing the spur going to the yard, that spur will have the dock area and the yard, i would like to power district them both separate, so I guess my option would be to setup to reverse units one for the leg of the spur and dock area and than gap between dock and yard and put the yard on another unit. I see dcc specialties has a reverse unit that does some sort of double reverse unit called the psx-ar ive used them but not ina double reverse loop scenario. Here’s more on that: not sure if I would even need this but it would be back to back reverse units.
Exclusive Double Reverse for the PSX-AR
We have developed and added a great new feature to the PSX-AR series. There are layouts that may have back-to-back reverse loops where auto-reversers tend to flip-flop each other at the transition from one loop to the next. As would be expected the transition is jerky or sporadic and the locomotive may just stall.
Larry Maier created a provision in the software to create a slave unit PSX-AR enabled by a CV change. The slave unit has a programmable reversing time delay so that the units reverse in sequence. This new feature is called Double Reverse Mode™.
If you gap the wye to isolate the one leg leading to the yard and dock area, that creates a single reversing section, not a double reversing section. So, I am not certain that you would want to set up the PSX-AR in Double Reverse Mode.
Since the PSX-AR is also a circuit breaker, if you want to separately protect the yard and the dock area, it seems to me that it would make more sense to add a separate PSX circuit breaker unit for either the yard or the dock area.
If it were me, I would arrange the lead track into the yard/dock complex as the reversing section, making it long enough to accommodate the longest train. That way, the track work beyond the reversing section would be unaffected by any reverse polarity situation. Then, add a PSX unit for circuit breaker protection at the head of either the yard or the dock area.
here is a better pic, if I want to keep the yard and dock area under seperate power disricts, and i just use dock area under rervese and have a train enter reverse section from yard and also one from the wye would that not create a short? thats why i thought add another reverse unit in the yard area as well as the orginal plan of a reverse unit in the wye.
What is the length of the track between point B and the turnout that leads into the dock area?
Is that length of track long enough to accommodate the longest train that might enter the dock area or yard?
It would help if you could give us some scale dimensions and lengths.
Hi Rich,
Thanks again for everyone’s input, Yes that section should be long enough to hold a train, I just wanted to see if there was a way to protect the accident of another train overshooting the gap on the other side and creating a short situation. I know that would mean they would be on a Collison course, but sometimes operators can overrun a switch and need to backup thus a short would be triggered, I guess we have control over that, but the fact that a spot actually exists that could cause a short, I was wondering if there was a way around it, that’s why I thought to putting another reverse unit in the yard area, the issue with that is, if a train enters the wye reverse and the same time a train enters from the yard, what occurs do we end up with 2 reverse sections that keep switching back and forth. I also read something about the psx ar having the ability to use a double reverse I don’t know what that feature is all about and or if it could be applied here. The end all may very well be that I have to gap in those areas you mentioned and just manually control who goes into that section, which was one of the original plans.
would this work or cause reverse issues?
I am not familiar with the operation of the PSX-AR Double Reverse Mode. From the commentary provided by DCC Specialities, it seems to suggest that it would work for your proposed setup, but I just cannot say for certain. I also have to wonder how you would provide separate circuit breaker protection for the dock area and the yard, as you wish to do.
I understand what you are trying to do. If a train coming from from the east takes the divergent route from Point C to Point B, it will trip the PSX-AR and reverse the polarity. If another train is approaching Point B as it exits the yard, a head-on collision will occur unless the train facing it takes the divergent route into the dock area.
What I would do is to treat the entire dock area and yard as part of one reversing section. The turnout serving as the entry to the dock area could be power routing such as Peco. You could set up a dead section of track so that the train exiting the yard would stop for lack of power if the dock entry turnout is thrown divergent. That would prevent a collision. On the divergent end of the dock entry turnout, you could gap the rails and add a PSX circuit breaker so that the dock area and yard each would each have separate circuit breaker protection.
There is no rule that says the tail of the wye has to be the reversing section. The exposure is that you would have a locomotive entering or leaving the reverse section from both ends at the same time. Just pick a train length section on whichever of the 3 legs of the wye where that would be least likely to happen and control that with the PSX-AR.
BTW, your reverse section 2 should be a standard power district, not a reverse section.
I would still be interested in knowing the length of each of those track segments.
I have a similar wye only mine is double track around both legs of the wye off the mainline. Do I need two (2) AR1 reversers or can I use just one (1)?