Hi all. I'm new to model rr'ing (since Xmas), and I'm learning everything the hard, and often very expensive way, by trial and error. I do get a lot of help from these forums. I'm not sure this question belongs here, but it's worth a try.
I'm not interested in DCC yet -- I want to master DC layouts first, and I'm doing OK with that for the most part. I found a loco I would really like to get, the price is right, the rail line is exactly what I'm looking for. However, it says it's DCC ready, with no mention of DC. Is it likely to be compatible with a DC wiring layout? Or will it only work with DCC?
Thanks in advance for any help.
A DCC ready loco is a DC loco that can easily be converted to DCC. The loco you wish to get will work fine with DC, and by adding a decoder later it will run on both DC and DCC. Go ahead and get the loco. Don't let Rich's post scare you. You are good to go on DC and can always have someone else install the decoder for you should it appear too daunting a task.
Most of the time a DCC ready loco will have the DC adapter plugged into the loco and ready to run on DC.
Some will not be easy if the decoder is a little too large. Measure twice and cut once before ordering the decoder.
My experience has been with HO locos with 8 pin socket on a PC board, Bachmann, or some with 9 pin socket, Athearn Roundhouse steamers.
A couple small Bachmann diesels had a couple metal clips on the PC board and had to solder the seven decoder leads to the PC board.
Some can be problematic if you want DCC sound in the future. There are many variations when it comes to decoders in locos. There are 6 pin, 8 pin, 9 pin, 21 pin variations so far. Some have no connector. You hardwire or solder in your own plug.
I have had 6, 8 and 9 pin decoders and a few with no connector.
All the decoder companies show all the specs at their websites including the size of the decoder.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
AjhallHi all. I'm new to model rr'ing (since Xmas), and I'm learning everything the hard, and often very expensive way, by trial and error.
Welcome to the forum. I am a returning MR guy so DCC is still relatively new to me. Not everyone agrees that DCC is the best and things could still go either way in my layout construction. HOWEVER DCC demands a higher level of performance from the wiring. It is easier to put in larger gauge wire and enough feeders in the early stage of construction than it is to replace the wiring 2 years from now and the cost difference is not that much unless you are building an empire.
DCC gets seriously expensive if you insist on learning by trial and error.
To that end, I recommend you buy a couple books on DCC as well as Armstrong's book Track Planning for Realistic Operation.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Big Daddy has a good point which is probably more important than the locos. A lot will depend on the size of the layout.
My DC layout works fine with #22 on DCC because I run one or two locos only.
Number sixteen buss would be fine for many home layouts with six to eight inch #22 feeders. Our club with two rooms uses that method with a five amp system.
Reverse loops and cross overs will be an issue with DCC. DCC reverser's are needed.
TCS decoder company has many examples of loco conversions with some that are plug and play if you think you are not up to it.
You will find there is a learning curve with DCC and Google should be your best friend for this. Has been for me for some years but I prefer a quick answer rather than long conversations. It is easy to build a nice list of DCC links in the browser. Really nice if you use an iPad when working on the layout.
Edit.
I use the NCE Power cab when I switched to DCC so the wire I had suited me fine. Turnouts not an issue because they are hand laid with powered frogs.
Turnouts can be an issue with DCC so keep that in mind when buying turnouts. It is not easy to replace turnouts on most layouts. Google dcc friendly turnouts.
Hi Ajhall, welcome. So, to recap, so far about your original question, just like floridaflyer says, your "DCC ready" loco will already be set up for DC. If you go on to DCC, your loco's wiring is ready to accept the decoder.
Another way you can go, to start off easy, Atlas makes locos with a "dual mode" decoder all ready installed. A positioning change of the "DC plugs", turns it from DC to DCC. It's spelled out in the instructions that come with the loco. Not sure if they offer this in steam engines. I have 3 of these, and they work great.
And, yes, there is a learning curve with DCC, just as your going through with DC. I'm still on that curve, and you'll probably pass me up Just say hello as you pass by!
Mike.
My You Tube
Ajhall
Welcome to the forum. You will find this forum to be a wealth of modeling and product knowledge. Not all of us agree on everything so read posts carefully and look for responders offering objective ideas or including clear reasons why they are offering more subjective opinions. With that said, here are some of my admittedly subjective responses to your inquiry.
You state that you are not interested in DCC yet. I suspect that is more because you currently know very little about DCC. I would recommend to anyone starting in model railroading to just jump into the DCC arena because it is highly likely that you will eventually convert to DCC down the road anyway. I realize that lots of DC model railroaders claim DCC is just a super expensive nightmare. However, I have not experienced such nightmares and you don't have to start with an empire size layout. Although DCC tends to require heavier gauge wire than DC, even a basic DCC system will allow you to run multiple trains and will be far easier to wire than even a basic two-cab DC layout. Actually, if you think you have the skills to wire a DC layout, then you certainly have the skills to wire a DCC layout. The "knowledge" needed to wire a DCC layout does not require a rocket scientist. Essentially, if you understand the difference between series and parallel circuits, you already understand most of what you'll need to know to wire a DCC layout. Read some of the on-line DCC primers out there and keep in mind that there are several entry level DCC systems that will allow you to get started without a huge investment.
I have been modeling for many years and have built both multi-cab DC and DCC layouts of various sizes. The first time I tried DCC, I put away all my old DC gear forever! Many will tell you that DCC just doesn't make sense on a small layout but I found DCC to be a huge advantage on a small layout. Trying to run multiple trains on a small DC layout is more about controlling track blocks than running trains. DCC is ALL about running trains!
Whatever you choose to do though, just avoid the temptation to buy everything cheap. Much of the truly cheap entry level stuff out there is just that -- cheap junk. Such junk rarely runs well and is more likely to turn you off to the hobby. Yes, if you know where to look you can find quality train equipment at much better than MSRP prices but you will need to gather the modeling experience and product knowledge to be able to make such deals. So read, read, read and learn all you can before spending your money.
Feel free to ask questions on this Forum. There are a lot of experienced modelers here willing to help you. If you find an item and you think the price is too good to be true, or you want to know whether an item is worth the price, don't hesitate to ask. If an aspect of DCC eludes your comprehension, post your question on this forum. We can help!
As far as the meaning of DCC Ready, this term is relative to each manufacturer. All DCC Ready locos are DC locos that must me converted to work as DCC locos. To some manufacturers, DCC Ready merely means the loco could be converted to DCC. It might require a bit of effort but it could be converted. To other manufacturers, DCC Ready means the loco already includes a means of simply plugging a DCC decoder into the existing electronics. You should also note that many DCC Equipped locos will run on both DC and DCC powered layouts so it is possible to start with a DC powered layout while you collect a roster of DCC Equipped equipment. While some DCC systems provide a means of running one DC loco, it is not advisable to do so.
Good luck and welcome to the hobby!
Hornblower
Thanks for all the great info. As I said, I've learned more from reading threads here and asking the occasional question than from any other single source. There have been times when I've been discouraged enough to think, "Ahh, the heck with it," only to poke around here and find the answer to whatever problem was stumping me.
I have very little space to work with. I originally intended to go with N-scale, but it quickly became apparent that it was much too small for my aging eyes to handle comfortably. HO is much easier to work with, but I'm quite limited in what I can do with layouts on a 4x6 bench. Therefore, I want to get the most out of the space I have.
Right now, I've opted to build a layout that isn't permanent, and use it to learn the basics, a way to make mistakes I can fix and learn from in the process. Just putting together a track layout where everything fits has been the biggest challenge. The Atlas SRAM software program helps a lot, but it has it's limits. Just diving in and trying different configurations has been the most effective means. So far, I've created a double loop with three spurs, one of which is a 3% curving grade from "sea level" to a hilltop plateau. I've done the basic DC wiring, and to my surprise, it worked first time.
At any rate, my goal is to pick away at it over the summer, build up a collection of rolling stock and locos, learn the basics of scenery, and come fall, when it's time to put outdoor stuff away and retire to the cellar for the winter, I'd like to see if I can eke out the space for a permanent 4x8 layout. If I'm comfortable with doing basic wiring, something I have never attempted on any scale in my nearly three score years on this planet, I'll go DCC from the ground up. One way or the other, I'm in no rush. The learning journey is the where all the fun is.
Thanks to all for your willingness to share your hard-earned experience with a new member of the model rr'ing community. It's fun and challenging, and my only regret is that I didn't start 20 years ago.
Believe you will find the wiring for DCC will be pretty straight forward. Basically a main wire run, called a buss, and short wires coming off the buss to the track every so often. Actually the layout will run with one set of wires to the track but that is not best practice. It can get more complicated than that at times, but for basic operation, you should be able to do it with no problem.
Hello all,
Welcome to the Forums!!!
From personal experiense I would make the move the DCC as soon as possible.
The expense you are going to layout for a multi-cab, multi-block, DC pike will be close to what you will eventually have to spend on a basic, expandable, DCC system.
With DC the expense comes not from the electronic controllers but from the wire and block control system. Even if you use DPDT toggles for your blocks (as opposed to the Atlas controllers) you will still be investing in a dead end.
As I experienced, DC block control takes a lot of wire. Even on my 4'x8' pike I easily ran over 100-feet of wire! I had dual-cab control with 16 blocks in addition to 20 turnouts. Some control blocks were the length of a single locomotive for switching purposes.
That's a lot of copper!
When I converted to DCC I went from 16 analog blocks to 6 DCC power districts. The wire I harvested from the 10 analog blocks was a waisted expense. Had I gone with DCC initially that same money would have gone to partially pay for the inevitable DCC system.
Even just controlling two locomotives simultaneously with the DC dual-cab controllers was like a one armed man playing a piano.
As has been said of DC versus DCC operations, "In DC you control the track, In DCC you control the locomotives."
The exception to this wiring quandary would be turnouts. I still run my turnouts DC. At this point I see no need to convert the turnouts to DCC. I don't use any form of block detection or automated turnout control...yet.
If you are at all hesitant about DCC try to visit a club layout or attend a train show with layouts that use DCC and ask questions.
If you think the folks here in the forums like to talk about trains wait until you open the conversation about DCC face to face with folks.
Hope this helps.
Post Script:
Here are some previous threads that dealt with DC/DCC operations:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/254241.aspx
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/250561.aspx
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/252559.aspx
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/226338.aspx
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/254019.aspx
To access these links you'll have to highlight the link and then right-click "Open Link."
H.T.H.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Just my opinion but having been doing this since I was kid (dad was an electrician - started with lionel before going to HO 40+ years ago), I recently made the switch to DCC. Elated at first. Then all the issues began to set in. Four months later I'm a happy camper again.
The point is, that having grown up in the DC world, there's a lot to "un-learn" as well to learn. IMO you might as well just start out with DCC.
I was buying "DCC Ready" locos for years in preparation for the transition from DC to DCC. I wish I just bought the DCC locos with sound in the first place. "DCC Ready" means different things to different manufacturers, and if you need to install sound "DCC Ready" becomes even more ambiguous. It usually ends up costing just as much or more to convert DC or DCC Ready locos, not to mention the time and additional problems/learning curve to do the upgrades. As I later found out after the fact is that pretty much any DCC Ready loco made in the last decade or more can run on DC or DCC, and most good DC locos can run on DCC systems. About the only thing I can think of that might be of benefit regarding "mastering DC" is using blocks to electrically isolate one part of a track from another. It creates a lot more wiring but has a lot more flexibility for trouble shooting, upgrading to multiple power districts, etc.