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Wiring three way Walthers code 83 DCC friendly turnout

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  • Member since
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  • From: Birmingham, Michigan
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Wiring three way Walthers code 83 DCC friendly turnout
Posted by jjackso8 on Monday, April 11, 2016 12:56 PM

I have a Walthers 3-way turnout that is giving me fits electrically. I have trouble with shorts on two of the three paths of the turnout. One (to the right) way everything is fine, but as the loco uses the center path or the left path it creates a short as it crosses over the insulated joiner. If I put the loco past that point everything works right. Forward is forward and reverese is reverse just as it was entering the turnout. It is just that spot where the insulated joiner is. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

John Jackson Birmingham, MI Detroit, Woodbridge & Birmingham RR HO Standard Gauge Protolanced from CN/NorfolkSouthern Industrial connector road located in northern Michigan No Particular Era
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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 11, 2016 1:23 PM

John, I have three of the Walthers 3-way turnouts lined up end to end in a coach yard on my layout.

My suspicion is that the shorts are occurring as the wheels touch rails of opposite polarity where the rails converge near the frogs. A quick but effective solution is a small dab of clear nail polish at that point.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by selector on Monday, April 11, 2016 2:19 PM

When I have used that turnout, I place a gap at the end of the turnout on the three exits.  I don't use a joiner between the tracks that follow and the three exits.  It works that way for me.  I have had continuity problems, though, and ended up soldering a single 25 gauge strand of wire between one of the closure rails and the point attached to it.

I don't have shorts at any of the frogs. If you are sure you are getting shorts there, simply paint about 1/4" outbound of the split rails at the frog point rails.  That is, where the insulator is, go outward and paint another 1/4" of one of the two rails with clear varnish.  Let it cure fully.

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Posted by peahrens on Monday, April 11, 2016 2:32 PM

I have a code 83 one that needed some help to prevent the shorting.  Look over the threads below, one from Oct 2013 and one from January 2013 that explain the problem(s) and fix(es).  I think the earlier one had photos pinpointing one of the offending small pieces (especially the one by Middleman) but the links to the photos seem to be void.  Sorry I don't remember how to make these old links clickable.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/221070.aspx

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/214350.aspx?sort=ASC&pi314=2

Update: Here's a thread from 2008, on double crossovers, but where another member shows a photo of one of the 3-way problem areas that he solved with nail polish.  I think I did the same.  Don't know it this is your problem area.

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/122369.aspx

 

 

 

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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Posted by floridaflyer on Monday, April 11, 2016 3:10 PM

Is there a possibility that the "polarity" on the two routes causing the problem, is opposite from that of the turnout?

  • Member since
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Posted by jjackso8 on Monday, April 11, 2016 3:22 PM

jjackso8

I have a Walthers 3-way turnout that is giving me fits electrically. I have trouble with shorts on two of the three paths of the turnout. One (to the right) way everything is fine, but as the loco uses the center path or the left path it creates a short as it crosses over the insulated joiner. If I put the loco past that point everything works right. Forward is forward and reverese is reverse just as it was entering the turnout. It is just that spot where the insulated joiner is. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Just further clarification the short occurs after the frogs and just as the loco leaves the trackage of the turnout itself. My gaps are about 4 inches from the frogs.

John Jackson Birmingham, MI Detroit, Woodbridge & Birmingham RR HO Standard Gauge Protolanced from CN/NorfolkSouthern Industrial connector road located in northern Michigan No Particular Era
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Posted by jjackso8 on Monday, April 11, 2016 3:31 PM

FloridaFlyer

I don't think so as if I push the loco past the gaps it continues on as if there was never a short.

 

John Jackson Birmingham, MI Detroit, Woodbridge & Birmingham RR HO Standard Gauge Protolanced from CN/NorfolkSouthern Industrial connector road located in northern Michigan No Particular Era
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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 11, 2016 4:09 PM

Tell us more. 

Has the 3-way turnout just been installed or has it been in place and just now started to exhibit shorts?

Can you provide us with a track plan?

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 11, 2016 4:18 PM

jjackso8

FloridaFlyer

I don't think so as if I push the loco past the gaps it continues on as if there was never a short.

 

 

florida flyer may still be right. It could be a reverse polarity problem. If it is, once you push the loco across the gaps, the short disappears because both sides of all of the wheelsets are sitting on rails of the same polarity.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by jjackso8 on Monday, April 11, 2016 4:23 PM

Understood. However why would the loco direction and speed be unchanged from when just before hiting the short?

 

John Jackson Birmingham, MI Detroit, Woodbridge & Birmingham RR HO Standard Gauge Protolanced from CN/NorfolkSouthern Industrial connector road located in northern Michigan No Particular Era
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Posted by jjackso8 on Monday, April 11, 2016 4:24 PM

I will try tonight after I figure out how to upload one.

John Jackson Birmingham, MI Detroit, Woodbridge & Birmingham RR HO Standard Gauge Protolanced from CN/NorfolkSouthern Industrial connector road located in northern Michigan No Particular Era
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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 11, 2016 6:39 PM

jjackso8

Understood. However why would the loco direction and speed be unchanged from when just before hiting the short?

 

 

Why would you expect the loco to change direction or speed?  This is a DCC powered layout, correct?

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 11, 2016 6:39 PM

jjackso8

I will try tonight after I figure out how to upload one.

 

Or email it to me and I will post it for you.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by jjackso8 on Monday, April 11, 2016 7:32 PM

Would love to but not sure how to get your e-mail address to send it.

John Jackson Birmingham, MI Detroit, Woodbridge & Birmingham RR HO Standard Gauge Protolanced from CN/NorfolkSouthern Industrial connector road located in northern Michigan No Particular Era
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Posted by jjackso8 on Monday, April 11, 2016 7:34 PM

when I had just used plastic rail joiners there was no problem. I reinstalled it and created gaps further down the line and now there are shorts. got the track plan but cannot figure out how to post the scanned drawing.

John Jackson Birmingham, MI Detroit, Woodbridge & Birmingham RR HO Standard Gauge Protolanced from CN/NorfolkSouthern Industrial connector road located in northern Michigan No Particular Era
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Posted by jjackso8 on Monday, April 11, 2016 7:42 PM

sketch

John Jackson Birmingham, MI Detroit, Woodbridge & Birmingham RR HO Standard Gauge Protolanced from CN/NorfolkSouthern Industrial connector road located in northern Michigan No Particular Era
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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, April 11, 2016 9:28 PM

jjackso8

Would love to but not sure how to get your e-mail address to send it.

 

Check your Messages for my email address.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Monday, April 11, 2016 9:38 PM

I have one of these.  I wired it without gaps, and with feeders on both sides.  "DCC Friendly" implies that you can do that, so I did.  I have no problems of any kind with these turnouts.

DCC is not polarity dependent.  Auto-reversers, in fact, work by actually flipping the polarity to avoid such conflicts.  You can't, however, have half of the engine on tracks with one polarity and the other half on the opposite polarity.  That will cause a short, and I'd suggest that's what you're seeing.

If it turns out that your polarity is correct, take a look at your frogs.  Did you power them?  Did you run them through a Tortoise or other device to properly set the frog polarity based on point position?  There may be something funky here.

If you didn't power the frogs, they should be dead.  While they should not cause a short in that situation, they may cause dropouts, and it's advisable to power them.  These are fairly long turnouts with long frogs, after all.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, April 12, 2016 7:09 AM

Another question.

Are you sure that it is a short?

Or could it simply be a stall (no power)?

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, April 12, 2016 8:10 AM

 Indeed, this sounds more like a stall. That 4" section may have no power. Conversely, if there are feeders applied to that 4: section it would cause a short. The rails past the frog need to take the polarity of the frog, so if there are fixed feeders instead of switched power of some sort, there will be a short in certain routes.

                 --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Tuesday, April 12, 2016 9:56 AM

Sometimes walthers/shinohara applies jumpers beneath the track to adjoining rails.  These jumpers become loose requiring resoldering or another jumper wire.

I sometimes just push down on the solder ends with a hot soldering tip for a second or two...enough to resolder the point but not enough to do a lot of damage to the plastic ties.  But before you do this, make sure this is the case by testing with a continuity testor/ohm meter.

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!

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Posted by jjackso8 on Wednesday, April 13, 2016 8:22 PM

Getting expert advice from people on this forum is NEVER anything but amazing. I needed help and got it in spades!!!! Thanks!! After finally understanding that DCC is NOT polarity driven, I finally got to try an experiment. I disconnected all the dead end spurs where the shorts were occurring. Once they were disconnected (thank goodness for suitcase/insulation displacement connectors), I used a set of jumper cables to get the power to the spurs from the one that was working. Once I did that it became ABSOLUTELY clear that it was a polarity problem totally. I have now reconnected the feeders to the proper bus and all is working great. Thanks again for all your help and patience!!!! I hope that someday I can repay all the help you all gave me by helping someone else here on the forums!!!
 
John Jackson Birmingham, MI Detroit, Woodbridge & Birmingham RR HO Standard Gauge Protolanced from CN/NorfolkSouthern Industrial connector road located in northern Michigan No Particular Era
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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, April 14, 2016 5:20 AM

John, congratulations on solving that problem. It is always good to hear from someone who digs in and investigates and solves his own problem. Kudos.

Rich

Alton Junction

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