I guess I'll go with my original plan then and just solder jumper wires across some of the shorter sections in lieu of a feeder, and presolder the feeders beforehand. Thanks for the replies! Off to get some of those heat sink medical tweezers! :)
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
You're doing it right. It's much easier to solder feeders on your bench. I do the same to attach the feeders to power metal frogs.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Many folks add wire drops while laying track, so that's not necessarily unusual.
Note that you don't need a wire drop to every track section if you solder rail joiners. Just work to ensure that every section of rail has a soldered connection somehow (wire drop or soldered joiners) and be sure to leave some joiners unsoldered to allow for seasonal movements.
If you have foam plus plywood, drilling a hole for each feeder is kind of pesky, in my experience, so reducing the number of times you need to do that is a plus in my book.
fieryturboattaching a feeder to every piece of sectional track I have, (yeah, it'll be hundreds of pieces)
One of the best arguments for flextrack ever.
Good luck with your layout.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Rich, since most of my main line track is where it will always be, I drilled a hole on each side of the track, making sure I was cleared of any benchwork framework below. I ended up with at least one set of feeders per length of flex-track.
I did rearange some yard track, and had to redrill a couple of holes, and after all was done, I could easily hide the wires / holes with ballast, and ground cover.
Mike.
My You Tube
richhotrain I have been thinking about this very issue lately as I contemplate the possibility of a new layout. On my current layout, I soldered feeders to the bottom of rail joiners. That works fine until the rail joiner loosens or glue gets between the rail joiner and the rail. In other words, soldering feeders to the bottom of rail joiners does not work well, at least over the long term. On my next layout, I have concluded that it makes the most sense to solder feeders to the bottom of the rail. You can also solder feeders to the outside of the rails, but then it is difficult to hide the appearance of the wire ends and the solder. So, soldering feeders to the bottom of the rails seems to be the best option. That said, the question remains, where do you drill the hole through the surface of the layout to connect the feeders to the bus wires. Do you drop the feeders directly below the rail connection point? That can be problematic if you later have to shift the position of the track. I would prefer to drill the hole just outside the roadbed, but that means running the feeder wires over the surface of the roadbed. Of course, the ballast can later cover the feeder wires, but this may be objectionable to some modelers. So, my question is, where is the best spot to drill the hole through the surface of the layout to connect the feeders to the bus wires? Rich
I have been thinking about this very issue lately as I contemplate the possibility of a new layout.
On my current layout, I soldered feeders to the bottom of rail joiners. That works fine until the rail joiner loosens or glue gets between the rail joiner and the rail. In other words, soldering feeders to the bottom of rail joiners does not work well, at least over the long term.
On my next layout, I have concluded that it makes the most sense to solder feeders to the bottom of the rail. You can also solder feeders to the outside of the rails, but then it is difficult to hide the appearance of the wire ends and the solder. So, soldering feeders to the bottom of the rails seems to be the best option.
That said, the question remains, where do you drill the hole through the surface of the layout to connect the feeders to the bus wires. Do you drop the feeders directly below the rail connection point? That can be problematic if you later have to shift the position of the track. I would prefer to drill the hole just outside the roadbed, but that means running the feeder wires over the surface of the roadbed. Of course, the ballast can later cover the feeder wires, but this may be objectionable to some modelers.
So, my question is, where is the best spot to drill the hole through the surface of the layout to connect the feeders to the bus wires?
Rich
Rich,
I solder the feeder joiners to each section of track (one ends of two pieces of track). The other ends of the tracks I leave the rail joiners unsoldered. By having a soldered feeder joiner every other joiner, each section of track has soldered contact with the current. The other unsoldered joiner is really just there to keep the track aligned and to provide a gap for the rails to slide with seasonal expansion.
With flex track, I solder the joiners to the rails after installing the track, because one of the rails is going to slide. If you can mostly precurve the track ahead of time, or are working with a shallow bend or straight section, it really doesn't matter when you solder the joiners to the rails because the rail doesn't slide that much. Same thing if you just solder the feeders directly to the sides of the rails (which I think looks worse, which is why I solder to the bottom of the joiner.)
Edit for more details: The feeders are soldered to the joiners so they point to the center of the track and I use one hole in the middle for both wires. I drill the hole after the track has been secured and funnel the skinny wires through the hole to the buss. You can even use feeder wires that are 3 feet long so as to run the bus along the fascia and bring the feeders to you and solder them to the bus while sitting in a chair.
Obviously, you want as little of bare wire as possible at the joiner. This is the part of the flex track where the ties have already been removed in order to install joiners. I shave the spikes and replace one tie at a time. Ballast right over the hole later long after the connections have been verified to operate properly (maybe months or years later if you don't like to ballast). I've never had a soldered feeder come off the bottom of the joiner, so joint failure would be remote. If there is any wire exposed towards the inside of the rail, you can paint over it. Because its on the bottom of the joiner, the wire is low enough so flanges are untouched. And stranded wire can be flattened so there is no hump where the wire is under the joiner. Flattened soldered wire is very solid. Any dimunition of wire gauge because of the flattening (I don't know if flattening a wire at the point of contact effects wire gauge) is made up for with the conductive solder, IMO.
- Douglas
Alton Junction
[quote user="hon30critter"]
Frank:
Where do you buy the Solder-It Silver Bearing Solder Paste?
Thanks
Dave
Dave,
I got mine from Micromark somewhat pricer than Mfg. price, but I did not care...I liked the product. I learned that Wal-mart distributes it also...but they order it for You. I have been meaning to contact Solder-It, for a distributor list, but have not got around to it yet, been real busy. Micromark:
http://www.micromark.com/silver-bearing-solder-71-grams,7165.html
Since I got it, a couple months ago...that is all I use now...it is so much easier to use...works great for PC boards. Soldering rail is a piece of cake...one hand holds the soldering iron...other hand can hold a flat blade screw driver with paste and wire against rail...simple.
Take Care!
Frank
The EASY thing is to use flex track as much as possible and solder feeders to each section fo flex track. That's a WHOLE lot less work than solderign every piece of sectional track.
And unless you are totally hopeless, don;t waste money on the ATlas termianl joiners. Buy a pack of joiners, sit down at the workbench, and cut up sections of feeder wire and solder them to the joiners. You can do a full pack of regular joiners for the price of just 1 pair of the premade ones. ANd then use these homemade terminal joienrs for every rail joint - with Atlas turnouts, that measn 3 sets per turnout. I've built 2 layouts this way and have never had any power problems, even after painting the rails (yes, paintign right over the rail joiners) and ballasting. And I mean EVERY rail joint - if I had say two turnouts with a 3 inch piece of track between them - BOTH sides of that 3" track got terminal joiners. Where I wanted an insulated gap between sections, I used two short pieces of track. The insulated joienrs went between the two short peices, and there were terminal joiners on the sides that connected to the adjacent pieces fo flex. This is quite bulletproof and all soldering on the track side is done at the workbench, no soldering directly to the rails, so even if you aren't great at soldering, you won't be melting ties, you can;t really ruin the joiners soldering wire to them. Just build up a good supply of them so when you get going with track laying you don;t have to stop in the middle to go make more terminal joiners. And don't reuse joiners. I use fresh ones to make up the ones with wires soldered on. I have a few spares I use to fit tracks together to make cuts and so forth, which fit on easily because they've been used several times. When it's tiem to put the track in place for good, the temp joiners come out and a fresh set of those with wires goes in.
--Randy.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I did most of my feeders that way, and some I did in place. I didn't solder to the joiners, as they can be the first weak link in the chain. I would just lay the track in place, knowing where bench work obstacles are below, and mark the track where the best place to feed the wires through. I had to relocate a couple of holes, but it worked good.
I did solder a jumper wire between track sections, as I have no problems with thermo expansion and contraction.
EDIT: All of my feeder wires are soldered to the outside of the rail, and not the bottom. You can remove what ever ties are in the way, solder where you want to, and after track is laid, replace the ties and secure in place before you ballast. And, yes you can spot them, but they do not stand out that much, hidden with solder, and painted, plus, most of these are in a hidden location.
Yeah. I don't really know how you attach a feeder to the bottom of the rail on a piece of sectional track at all, especially after it has been installed. The only open spot not covered by tie webbing is the part where the joiner goes, so I always solder the feeders onto the bottom of the JOINERS before installing the track permanently. (maybe OP meant the sides of the rails)
Kind of like making my own Atlas feeder joiners but with thicker wire and stouter soldering.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Doughless maxman So if the solder connection between the wire and the bottom of the rail fails after installation, how do you know? Your Honor, relevance please?
maxman
So if the solder connection between the wire and the bottom of the rail fails after installation, how do you know?
Your Honor, relevance please?
Fieryturbo,
If You want to make Your job with soldering all those feeders easy...there is an easier/better way...it eliminates the need for solder flux, do not need to clean/scrape the area or use rosin core solder.
Use Silver Bearing Solder paste, made by Solder-it Inc. Five times stronger than rosin solder and a lot better conductivity. All You need to do, is put Your wire where You want it, apply a little solder paste and touch iron to where paste is, in about a second the paste bubbles and turns Silver, remove iron and Your done..very easy to use and eliminates the need for three hands:
http://www.solderit.com/productspastes.html
They also make Aluminum solder paste and Pot Metal solder paste, that is what Atlas metal frogs are made out of.
I scratched built this all Brass sliding chainlink fence gate frame with the silver bearing solder and it was a breeze soldering...had I used the old way with rosin core solder and flux, I more than likely would have learned many more new cuss words.....been there, done that! Did not have to waste a lot of time dressing/filing the joints either...there was no need to.
A 50 watt to 60 watt Pencil iron works the best...that's what I use, but I have an adjustable temp one, built -in to the iron, with changeable tips, made by MUDDER.
I use all flex track on layout...so I lay track first, then solder feeders to side of rails...works best for Me.
richg1998 Doughless richg1998 Important issue. You will have to be very sure you have a good solder joint. Cleaned and tinned rail and shiny solder joint. Rosin flux and rosin based solder. Clean solder connection after. I know some here have used Sal Ammoniac solder and flux but I would not. Rich Still confused. Wouldn't you also have to know all of that if you soldered the feeder to the rail after it was installed? BTW, I solder my feeders to the bottom of the rail JOINERS, since the bottom of the rails themselves are usually covered by plastic ties and webbing. Right now the OP is saying soldering to the sectional rail. Same as soldering to flex rail. May never be an electrical issue but he wants to be safe. I agree, lots of feeders could be a pain. Also, electrical issues can occur over time at track joiners. If he uses wet water for ballasting can be an issue. It gets into the track joiner after a while with a track joiner not tight enough. Takes time though. Don't ask me how I know. I have read about that issue in other forums. That is why some want to solder all the track joiners to the track, sectional or flex. We have yet to hear from the OP anymore on this issue. Rich
Doughless richg1998 Important issue. You will have to be very sure you have a good solder joint. Cleaned and tinned rail and shiny solder joint. Rosin flux and rosin based solder. Clean solder connection after. I know some here have used Sal Ammoniac solder and flux but I would not. Rich Still confused. Wouldn't you also have to know all of that if you soldered the feeder to the rail after it was installed? BTW, I solder my feeders to the bottom of the rail JOINERS, since the bottom of the rails themselves are usually covered by plastic ties and webbing.
richg1998 Important issue. You will have to be very sure you have a good solder joint. Cleaned and tinned rail and shiny solder joint. Rosin flux and rosin based solder. Clean solder connection after. I know some here have used Sal Ammoniac solder and flux but I would not. Rich
Important issue. You will have to be very sure you have a good solder joint. Cleaned and tinned rail and shiny solder joint. Rosin flux and rosin based solder. Clean solder connection after.
I know some here have used Sal Ammoniac solder and flux but I would not.
Still confused. Wouldn't you also have to know all of that if you soldered the feeder to the rail after it was installed?
BTW, I solder my feeders to the bottom of the rail JOINERS, since the bottom of the rails themselves are usually covered by plastic ties and webbing.
Right now the OP is saying soldering to the sectional rail. Same as soldering to flex rail.
May never be an electrical issue but he wants to be safe. I agree, lots of feeders could be a pain.
Also, electrical issues can occur over time at track joiners. If he uses wet water for ballasting can be an issue. It gets into the track joiner after a while with a track joiner not tight enough. Takes time though. Don't ask me how I know.
I have read about that issue in other forums. That is why some want to solder all the track joiners to the track, sectional or flex.
We have yet to hear from the OP anymore on this issue.
I'm having a little fun with the forum.
What's most importnt is to solder and install the track well, no matter what method you choose.
But in general, I don't see any problems with installing track that has two little wires hanging from it,
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
OP is talking about sectional track.
For flex track, if you keep thesliding rail to the inside, you don't have to remove many ties on the other piece unless you are flexing the track really severely. I usually don't solder feeders to every piece of flex track anyway, I usually solder the track together after its installed.
If you stagger the joints, I would think you would want to solder the feeders to the sides of the rails after the track was installed.
I think it comes down to a matter of choice.
If you are going to solder your feeders to straight sections of track and then curve them you will find that the solder joints will interfere with the movement of the ties and cause problems. You will need to strategically remove some ties to allow for movement and no interference with your curves.
Joe
Important issue. Over time, a poor joint can fail and track joiners do not always maintain good contact. May be years down the line though.
As an example, out club back in the 1980's used Sal Ammoniac solder and paste. About fifteen to twenty years or so later, a feeder connections breaks. Happened a few times.
You will have to be very sure you have a good solder joint. Cleaned and tinned rail and shiny solder joint. Rosin flux and rosin based solder. Clean solder connection after.
maxman So if the solder connection between the wire and the bottom of the rail fails after installation, how do you know?
Locating the actual spot to drill a hole for feeders might be the only issue.
Look at the below link. This issue has come up before.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/164461.aspx
Atlas makes track joiners with a wire attached.
I thought soldering the feeders directly to the track before finally affixing the track to the roadbed was the way people normally do it.
So the demonstarted practice that I've seen has the wires attached to the track post-install Considering I plan on attaching a feeder to every piece of sectional track I have, (yeah, it'll be hundreds of pieces) I would prefer to sit at a desk and just solder stuff before I start laying it down. I can just use the joiners as my power feed while I'm testing and making sure everything goes into place the way I intended. It also occurred to me I could solder to the bottom of the track where it won't be seen at all, if I do it beforehand.
Is there something wrong with this plan?