I have read many post referring to advanced DC train control. Any body have any more information or links?
Fitter Roger I have read many post referring to advanced DC train control. Any body have any more information or links?
Roger,
I use one form of "advanced DC control", there are many versions. I do not know of any web based info, I have never bothered to document my system on the web other than to discribe it on this forum, and years ago on the Bachmann forum.
Depending on your electrical background, and experiance in the hobby, it would be hard to know where to start in explaining the various advanced systems that have been developed for DC over the many decades before DCC.
Some good reading on the subject can be found in two older books, Electrical Handbook for Model Railroads, vol 1 & 2, by Paul Mallery.
Additional reading on the subject can be found in the Model Railroader achive on this web site, specificly MZL control by Ed Ravenscroft, in the Feb, April, May and Oct 1974 issues, and in the articles on signaling and block control by Bruce Chubb around that same time.
I will not at this time try to detail how my system works on a technical level, but I will give at least some insight into its features and operation. My system is a hybrid version of MZL by Ed Ravenscroft.
To run multiple trains on the the same system of track without decoders in the locos like DCC, requires that the track be divided into sections or "blocks". "Block" ius a signaling term on the prototype, but is commonly used to describe electrical sections on DC powered model railroads with various forms of "cab control" or "advanced cab control".
The operation of the main line of system allows the layout to operate two different ways:
One, like CTC on the prototype, a dispatcher sets routes and gives train authority over a given section of track. By aligning turnouts and clearing signals to green, the track section or "block" is electrically connected to a specific throttle, in my case a wireless radio throttle, in the hands of the engineer of the specifc train in question.
The engineer then controls the speed and direction of his train and need not perform any other task other than obeying the signals and train orders from the dispatcher.
OR - without a dispatcher, engineers can assign their own routes and track sections via redundant controls located at each interlocking. If a track section ahead of them is ocupied, the signal will be red and they will have to wait for it to go green before assginng the next section to their trottle.
In my case, a total of 6 trains can travel around the double track mainline in either direction.
Yards, industrial areas, branch lines and other trackage is all handled slightly differently, each such area usually being a section which can be assigned to various throttles as needed.
In my case, much of the power selection is done automaticly based on turnout position. Other power selection is done with lighted pushbuttons on track diagrams and can be repeated anywhere they are needed.
Without decoders in locos, my system provides:
One button routing of multiple turnouts through complex interlocking junctions.
Signaling, CTC and Automatic Train Control - trains just stop if they run a red signal.
Interlocking protection like the prototype - turnouts cannot be thrown under the train.
Wireless walk around locomotive control with or without a dispatcher on duty.
Now for the bad news - this not something you by and plug in or program - it is something you build with miles of wire, relays, pushbuttons, detection units, and carefully thought out operational plans and wiring diagrams.
The up side, it costs less than using DCC and also having signaling and CTC - it does not require installing decoders in locos.
ALSO, the signaling, CTC and turnout control aspects of my system will work with DCC - if you are interested in the other features of DCC.
Personally, I don't like onboard sound in HO, and the other features of DCC are just not important enough for me to spend the money to put decoders in 130 locomotives.
Each Advanced DC system is best designed for the specific layout and operational needs of the owner. I designed a system similar to mine for a friend, but his layout does not require signaling or CTC. Here are a few photos of one control panel on his system.
If you want to know more, let me know. Sheldon
If you want to know more, let me know.
Sheldon
Back in the day, a system was created for advanced cab control. It was called MZL, which stands for master zone local.
Not sure if you have access to the MR archives but the FEB 74 issue has a article by the designer, Ed Ravenscroft with more articles to follow.
Jim
I think if I was starting again from a basic DC system, I would take a serious look at Rail Pro. ( I have an NCE Power Pro system )
Basically, with Rail Pro you install a decoder in the engine, turn on the hand controller, and run your trains. No modifications needed on the layout.
SouthPenn I think if I was starting again from a basic DC system, I would take a serious look at Rail Pro. ( I have an NCE Power Pro system ) Basically, with Rail Pro you install a decoder in the engine, turn on the hand controller, and run your trains. No modifications needed on the layout.
For a beginner, I agree, direct radio may well be the way of the future - but that was not the question the OP asked.
Sheldon, I agree that my comments were not a direct answer to Fitter Roger. But they are an option.
I spent a ton of money removing a Digitrax system and replacing it with an NCE system. I sure wish I would have known about Rail Pro.
It's nice to have options.
Sheldon runs a system based on Ed Ravenscroft's MZL system. I run a system based on modifying Ed Ravenscroft's original system for common rail, eliminating items that are no longer commonly available (Varney slot car controllers, rotary relay switch machines...) and subsituting, inexpensive, readily available (to me) equivalents.
My system is wiring-intensive, but user friendly. If there are several operators present I handle the main (similar to CTC) panel, which controls powered switches and can assign rail power to the entire railroad. Lacking a full crew, a couple of individuals can run TTTO, each running a separate train, making meets and passes by changing track power routing and operating switch machines from the Zone panels. Typically, a train needs only one power route setting for each zone; contacts on point moving devices connect electrical sections out to the limit of the zone's rail authority. (Translation - no banks of block power selection switches.)
If you are building a large layout and own a large stable of older locomotives with amp-hog Alnico magnet motors, it might be worthwhile to look into full-blown MZL. Starting from scratch with pure DC, you might want to take a look at designing a simpler version. I have a degree in electronics, so circuit design isn't much of a challenge to me. If it isn't your cup of tea, DCC really is the simplest solution.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL system)
A couple of interesting videos about Ed Ravenscroft:
The first question should be: Are you really comfortable working with complex electrical circuits, and soldering? Then there's finding & grabbing parts out of a parts catalog that meet specs.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
DigitalGriffin The first question should be: Are you really comfortable working with complex electrical circuits, and soldering? Then there's finding & grabbing parts out of a parts catalog that meet specs.
Don, not sure I understand your comments? Building a system like mine, or like Chuck's, does not generally involve building circuit board type stuff, unless you build your own throttles or detectors.
I do less wire soldering than the average DCC guy who installs his own decoders.
I use commercial detectors and throttles, I use relay logic and LED lighted pushbuttons (they do require soldered connections). I use standard 24 VDC industrial ice cube relays. I had one relay circuit board mass produced to make things simpler.
So my parts list is pretty simple, 24 VDC relays, LED pushbuttons, panel mount LED indicators, Aristo Radio Throttles, DALLEE inductive detectors, resistors for LED's, regulated commerical power supplies, Tortoise Switch Machines, and DPDT slide switches that control manual turnouts while powering frogs and directing power.
Sheldon,
I'm not trying to poo-poo him out of the gate. And I'm not trying to say stay away from MZL, or say "Just go DCC" and be done with it.
But it's sort of like picking out a sports car. If the person is a newb, they might not know the difference between a Dodge Viper (more raw driver skill) versus a Chevy Corvette (more computer nannies), versus a Ford Mustang. So it's important to understand WHY the user might want advanced DC control versus other alternatives...as well as their background.
DigitalGriffin Sheldon, I'm not trying to poo-poo him out of the gate. And I'm not trying to say stay away from MZL, or say "Just go DCC" and be done with it. But it's sort of like picking out a sports car. If the person is a newb, they might not know the difference between a Dodge Viper (more raw driver skill) versus a Chevy Corvette (more computer nannies), versus a Ford Mustang. So it's important to understand WHY the user might want advanced DC control versus other alternatives...as well as their background.
Well I agree that plenty of information is a good thing. I do find it interesting how so many people assume that the OP is a newby or may actually be looking for a control system even though he made no such statements along with his question.
Maybe I just think differently, but he sounds more like someone who is just curious about what I and several others were referring to with "advanced DC".
But again, what I do does not involve building much in the way of "electronics". I do build a few very simple sold state circuits but none are core parts of my control or signal system.
You're not getting any answers here. So far.
Since you've read "many post(s) referring to advanced DC train control", I recommend going back to those posts and raising the question with the folks who were doing the posting.
Ed
7j43k Fitter Roger I have read many post referring to advanced DC train control. Any body have any more information or links? You're not getting any answers here. So far. Since you've read "many post(s) referring to advanced DC train control", I recommend going back to those posts and raising the question with the folks who were doing the posting. Ed
Excuse me? I think my first reply was a very in depth answer, which included a number of resources to get even more information.
And, Chuck also provided significant information on one of the most popular forms of advanced DC train control as well.
And, it is highly likely that it was a post of mind where the op saw the term.