Hey Guys
Looking for some advice. I am starting to design my first big boy layout and all i have right now is DC. I am going to build it slowly then when i have enough rail down and money to switch to DCC in a year or two I am going to do it.
Anything i should do intially while i am wiring for DC that will make it easier when i switch to DCC. I am not too sure about the differences in the two when it comes to wiring the track.
Thanks for the help
I will suggest wiring for DCC. Most DC layouts for years used #18 to #22 wire.
Heavier wire is recommended for DCC. Usually #16 for the buss with #22 for feeders. Some will suggest the limit. #12 but that is over kill.
A club I use to belong to uses #16 for a two room layout and running a five amp system.
I still use #22 for DCC but only one or two sound locos. Never bothered to upgrade.
Useful links. Save them. You will need them.
No idea your level of experince. Take your time reading both links. Lots of info that is different from DC.
http://mrdccu.com/
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
And, if you use "blocks" on your DC layout, isolate both rails, and not use common rail wiring. Switching to DCC will be easier.
Mike.
My You Tube
"Buy books first" was the best I ever received on a totally different topic. If you and I had been active when DCC was first introduced and read all the magazine articles on it, we wouldn't need books.
I am finding it's a steep learning curve and asking questions here, while helpful, isn't a substitute for homework. Please don't interpret that as "go away and don't bother us" Not at all. The questions you are I ask, when we don't know anything are a piecemeal education. When you study it, and come back with questions, and they may even be the same questions you asked before, you are filling in the pieces that weren't explained well or you misunderstood.
You can spend a lot of money on DCC, boosters, switch machines, block detection, reversing circuits. It makes sense to learn as much as you can, before you buy rather than buy a system that doesn't work the way you expect or components that don't work well together.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Some here have said switching to DCC is easy. There is a learning curve as you must know by reading the links.
Get a multimeter and connect it to the point you will connect your DCC system. You can also get a buzzer from Radio Shack ands a nine volt battery. Anytime you create a short while connecting track, you will know right away. A few here over the years have laid track and wired and eventually found they had a short, somewhere.
As was said, do a lot of research first.
I did forget about not using common rail. Our club used it in the early 1980's as that is what everyone recommended. Model railroading was slowly evolving.
Today we have “dead rail” now. That can solve a lot of issues. But there are cons like only so much running time before charging a battery.
That is a VERY loaded question.
Technically speaking if you use DCC switches (turnouts) then you should be ready to go too DCC from DC with little issues.* All you would need to do is swap the power supply with the command station.*Note: if you use blocks or reversing sections that are gapped, these should and need to be replaced with local breakers (optional), and autoreversers (mandatory on reverse loops)I would go with quality 12-14AWG wires for the power bus and 18->24AWG for the feeders from the bus to the track.I like opto isolated boosters and say "Forget the common rail" Common rails really aren't consistent when you start getting into complex layouts with reversing loops and blocks.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Hello all,
Having done the exact same thing as you are doing, here are a few things that I found helpful.
I began with the book from atlas "The Complete Atlas Wiring Book." Some will say that this is nothing more than an advertising catalog for Atlas products; which it is, but it's also much more.
Yes, it does list the Atlas products and their intended usage but it also gives the schematics for the items, incase you have the penchant to fabricate your own.
It also talks about basic DC principles; which way is "forward," what is dual- or mulit-cab control, how to wire a reversing section, a Wye, block wiring, a turntable and what is common rail power.
At $8.95 I found it a valuable resource guide for wiring a DC block pike.
Other things to consider:
•Wiring your DC layout in blocks will definitely help when converting to DCC. In DC the blocks help you control the movement of trains, in DCC these become "power districts" with feeders off the bus for more reliable running.
•On my DC pike I wired all the turnouts with DC control; momentary switches separated into two blocks controlled by separate Capacitor Discharge Units. When I converted to DCC I kept all my turnouts DC.
•Having an understanding of basic electronics always helps. Being a former electrician most of these were not new concepts, but puting them in the context of model railroading, that experience definitely helped.
•If you don't find it helpful you're only out less than $10.00!
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
I'm going to be slightly different here.
!2+ years ago I started my home layout. Isaid a youngster about DCC and he said he didn't understand it. He is a nuclear power plant maintenance tech. He uses DCC now.
I went block control, three cab (power pack) control, with wireless throttles so that I could have multi person, walk around operations. The throttles, power packs, rotary switches, etc cost at least $1000.00 Canadian.
I would suggest setting up to run one train at a time in DC.
If I was to convert to DCC my power packs and throttles would sell for one quarter to one half of what I paid. Starting out you don't want this to happen. Being retired, I don't either.
I hope I do not sound negative, only telling you my thoughts, which may not be worth the time to read, or might be.
Dave
The Atlas books are definitely a good way to get started, but there are also generic wiring books that cover doing it all with standard switches instead of the Atlas products. The only problem with the Atlas products is that their multi-cab wiring is all common rail. There is also a ton of information in the internet you can access for free.
I think you have it backwards - if you use common rail, that's when you want to use optoisolated boosters for DCC, if you don't use common rail wiring there's no reason for the boosters to be isolated.
You can start with DCC for not much more than the cost of a decent power pack. Any of the decent starter sets will allow full upgrades later without throwing out or having to sell off surplus equipment - that applies to systems like Digitrax, NCE, and tos ome extend MRC. They have low cost starter systems that later expand to have every bell and whistle.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Being in the same boat as you regarding DC before DCC. Some told me that the wiring is easier with DCC over DC. DC seems a bit more reliabile since you don't have the potential for lost power between blocks.
I find that DC is perfect for me since I know nearly nothing about wiring and want to save money. One of the most frustrating things for trains is wasting money on way too cmplex things.
rrinker I think you have it backwards - if you use common rail, that's when you want to use optoisolated boosters for DCC, if you don't use common rail wiring there's no reason for the boosters to be isolated.
I may be mistaken but common rail wiring with multiple ground points are not the only source for floating grounds or reverse currents. Subtle variations between track sectioms might be enough to send a small voltage surge signal from one district booster to another when crossing the gaps. If essense your train acts as a bridge to turn your two seperate sections of track as one long section between two boosters. This can cause a back feed which a booster breaker would not trip. They either break based on total power (Watts) or just one leg going over current (usually the + output) to save money.An H-Bridge output might not handle this reverse buck current well. And I've seen a number of boosters from another manufacture go up in smoke and I suspect this was the reason.
Techincally speaking fine adjusting the output voltage at the gap points is supposed to handle this. But theory and practice don't always work so well when you're dealing with over a couple thousand feet of wiring. I've seen voltages at district gaps as much as 2+ Volts.
Dunno about other systems, but Digitrax wants a heavy gauge (same as the track bus) ground between the command station and all boosters. With both rails gapped and no common rail, this isn't a problem at all, it will trip the breakers if the phase is reversed from one section to the other, and slight voltage mismatches will flow through the heavy ground wire. Digitrax booster H bridges use a true +/- around the common - ie, +15 for the top of the waveforma nd -15 for the bottom half. Others just set the 'common' as a DC bias, say 15V over 'ground' so with reference to the circuit common or the input power -, if DC inmput, it puts out +30 to 0 for the waveform with the common at +15. What you see on the rails for a single booster is the same either way, but in refernce to the circuit common suck as the driver portion from command station to booster, you might see a 0-30V range. Easy enough to test, if you know a common point on the booster - with Digitrax it's the ground terminal on the connector, and they even suggest testing rail a to ground and rail b to ground rather than measuring voltage from rail a to rail b.
How many DC locomotives do you currently have? How well do they run?
I'm going to suggest skipping the DC layout entirely and going straight to DCC, unless you've got too many locomotives to put decoders in right away and you really want to run them. I mean, like really, really want to run them.
When I started building my own grown-up layout, I had the same plans. But, a small financial windfall let me buy a DCC system, and once I installed a decoder and ran my first train, I took the power pack and put it on a shelf under the layout where it's been for the last 12 years. Most of us have the same experience once we convert to DCC.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
DCC wiring is, most cases, different from DC wiring. DCC wiring will need a more substantial bus, and more feeders. While it can be made to work with both power styles, sometimes the difference is big enough it will cause some issues.
If you can, I would also suggest going straight into DCC. A starter system, like the Digitrax Zephyr system, really does not cost much more than two good DC packs, and can be expanded greatly as funds allow. It will also allow, for a time, running a DC locomotive (1) until the time comes you can afford the decoder, if needed. (I do not recommend it for a long time, as some debate over possible side effects to the motors is out there, but for short periods..... I have done just that, on occasion.) Going this route will still allow multiple train control, but you won't have two (or more) DC packs laying around after you have converted over to DCC. (So really, a good money saver in the long run.)
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Put the shelves in after you wire it, with up to a 30" reach and just 20" of clearance you'll have a hard time seeing what you are doing. Or else run all the wiring along the front edge, behind the fascia, so all connections will be right in front and easy to work with.
SpartanCookI just won more than enough to buy a DCC starter system from the Super Bowl last night.
Well, then, you should buy yourself one of these:
I prefer to be able to climb under my layout when necessary, but mine is wider than yours. Wiring is something that's never really "done," as you'll be adding things for years. Tortoise switch machines, in particular, need several inches of clearance below the layout.
I like to put feeders every other section of track, whether that be a short turnout or a 3-foot piece of flex track. A good rule of thumb is that you should not have to rely on rail joiners to transmit power from one section of rail to another.
Despite the range of capabilities of DCC, wiring it is pretty simple. You don't need to worry about blocks, unless you plan on a sophisticated signal system. Depending on the size of your layout, it may be a good idea to divide it into distinct "power districts" each protected by its own circuit breaker. Each district should have its own track power bus and be electrically isolated from the others. That's something to consider in the planning stages, but you don't need to buy breakers right away. Simply wire the districts together to start with, and then when you're ready for breakers you can install them later.
If you have a reverse loop or a reversing wye section, you'll want an auto-reverser. It will make the whole business of passing through a reverse loop completely transparent to the operator - no more toggles.
It's somewhat of a misconception that DCC requires lots of feeders and DC doesn't. Assuming everything else is equal (same size layout - not comparing a DC 4x8 to a 20x30 basement filling DCC layout here), you get the same amount of voltage drop in long feeder runs or long stretches of track withotu feeders in DC as you do in DCC. The difference is, you are at a lower starting voltage when running the DC loco, unless you liek runnign at race car speeds, and a slight slowing is not as noticeable. Build a 4x8 or larger layout with sectional track and do not solder the rail joiners and connect just 2 wires to the rails and try running it with a DC power pack - the trains WILL slow down. The drop can also be greater with DCC becase some spot far from any feeders could have 3, 4, or more locos runnign on it - and the voltage drop is proportional to the current draw. Just oen loco, DC or DCC, may not show any issues, but once you have multiple locos running at the end of the same power feed path with DCC, suddenly they all run slow.
The only difference there might be is when it comes to signal integrity. DC has none, so all you are dealing with is a voltage drop which causes slowdowns. With DCC, there is also the signal to worry about, not just absolute voltage. If the waveform becomes distorted, the decoder may no longer respond. There's quite a bit of leeway invovled in the NMRA specs, but corrupt the signal too much and strange thins happen. A heavy gauge bus run and multiple feeders helps with this.
I agree with the posters who recommended starting with a book on DCC. I started with the Digitrax Big Book of DCC back around 2000. Not sure if it's still available or has been updated since then, but I found it extremely helpful. Yes, Digitrax hardware is used in all the examples, but most of the content is about the basics of how DCC works, and so not manufacturer-specific.
As for shelving under the layout, make it easily removable! You can never say for certain "I'll never need to work under that section again."
Finally, I would also echo those who suggest that if you plan to use DCC at some point in the future, just start with it. It's not harder than DC, just different. Wiring for DCC is actually simpler than for DC with multiple blocks and cabs.