I, too, like Brussel Sprouts but will pass on the Lima Beans (my wife calls them Butter Beans - sure look like Limas to me) and the Liver and Onions!
Eat what you enjoy and use technology if it fits your situation. Most of all, have fun doing it.
richhotrainSo, once again, I ask, what's wrong with a handheld DCC throttle or a DC power pack to run trains?
I think the issue comes if you want to do radio/wireless control. You have to spend several hundred dollars for a wireless receiver and at least one radio/wireless handheld unit. On the other hand, most people already own a cellphone or tablet, so there's not as much expense involved in doing it. Now with decoders like Blunamis, you don't even need DCC, you can accomplish the same thing on DC power.
The real proublem with new tech is setting it up, they all come with so much garbage. They should all come with just the basics activated and let the user activate what they need. Took me a week to take away all the garbage on my new PC and I know there is still some on it.
LOL.
It must be a function of growing older, but I don't even recall starting that thread nearly 7 years ago.
Yeah, Randy is now gone, and I miss him too. And, whatever became of Stevert. What, me worry?
Rich
Alton Junction
SeeYou190This was an interesting thread to read through.
— and I miss Randy.
Cheers, Ed
This was an interesting thread to read through.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
To me, the question isn't about old vs new, or using a phone because you have one. The thing that astounds me is the poor quality of the user interfaces. Some other reponses in here touched on the poor user-friendliness of conventional DCC throttles. I couldn't agree more. But a phone isn't helping. We want to run TRAINS... not start an app, scroll through menus, blah blah blah. Nevermind updates, network settings, and all the other baggage that comes with using a smartphone. I want to pick up a device, select an engine (if it's DCC) and turn a speed or direction control. Touch-screen poking to change speed, or fiddling with the edge volume up/down buttons, are very clumsy unsatisfying controls. The thing about the old-fashioned physical DC throttle type controls is that they were intuitive for humans to operate. Smart phones infuriatingly force users to adapt to the phone. But the hallmark of a good user interface is that the user doesn't have to learn the interface's language. It speaks THEIR language. And believe me, I'm a smart phone user (for more than 10 years) as well as a software developer. I have adapted to multiple generations and changes in the interface. And they are all terrible. People have become accustomed to "terrible" so they accept it.
This is where the IR beam break speedometers are much better - most occupancy detectors have a little built in delay to keep the occupancy indication from flickering on and off due to dirty wheels.
A speed curve takes care of non-linear response, and can even set a max speed so that if the loco is capable of faster than prototypical speed, once you get the throttle past the correct 75mph top speed, the loco wouldn't go any faster.
Only way to be TRULY accurate is with feedback, like the motor speed sensor in MTH and BLI locos. That really takes any non-linearity out of the picture. All the calibration for that would be in the decoder, although you would have to know factors liek the gear ratio and th driver size in order to program it properly.
Basically - another one fo those things that is so far down the importance scale it doesn;t register right now. I don;t even look at the number on my throttle, I rarely look at my throttle when running, it's usually down at my side. Only takes a little experience to get a sense of how fast you really are going (most people run WAY too fast).
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Even if you have some sort of smartphone throttle to display the actual SMPH, you still need to calibrate each loco somehow. It's not a magic bullet.
Even if you have some sort of smartphone throttle to display the actual SMPH, you still need to calibrate each loco somehow. It's not a magic bullet.
two occupancy sensors 40" apart. When one tripped the timer went off. And when the second tripped, the timer stopped. I calculated the scale speed this way.
I then had the loconot reverse the loco and repeat the process for 4 speeds (27, 55, 83, and 127)
But the occupancy sensor isn't that accurate in timing. The scale response at the lower speeds is also not that accurate: It's very non-linear on some of my locos. This is especially true, when I change the throttle mode and change the # of cars it's hauling. Every decoder/train combination responds differently.
So it needs...tweeking.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
richhotrain I am really getting tired of reading about smart phones, tablets, Blue Tooth, WiFi and dead rail. What's wrong with a handheld DCC throttle or a DC power pack to run trains? Like a lot of others, as Troy Aikman so famously says in that TV commercial, "I dwell in the past". For my layout era, the mid-50s, none of this modern stuff even existed. I don't even own a smart phone or a tablet. Yeah, I've got a laptop but that's where it belongs, on my lap or on the top of my desk. So, once again, I ask, what's wrong with a handheld DCC throttle or a DC power pack to run trains? Rich
I am really getting tired of reading about smart phones, tablets, Blue Tooth, WiFi and dead rail. What's wrong with a handheld DCC throttle or a DC power pack to run trains?
Like a lot of others, as Troy Aikman so famously says in that TV commercial, "I dwell in the past".
For my layout era, the mid-50s, none of this modern stuff even existed. I don't even own a smart phone or a tablet. Yeah, I've got a laptop but that's where it belongs, on my lap or on the top of my desk.
So, once again, I ask, what's wrong with a handheld DCC throttle or a DC power pack to run trains?
Well Rich, I've been reading this with much amusement, so now I have a few minutes I will offer some thoughts:
I still have a flip phone and a desk top - actually both are rather new. I can't use a mouse pad on a lap top - never have been able to understand or master that.
I do have two Kindles (for the grand kids) and a new tablet - only use it when needed on the job site or when traveling.
I'm not tech shy, I programed some of the first Programable Logic Controllers in the 1980's. But like a few others have suggested, I'm only interested in tech that makes my life easier.
Tech I love - the blue tooth phone connections in our new cars, indash navigation (way better than any smart phone with a too small screen), the "smart key" features on our new FORD Flex, my X10 home automation that allows control of out dooor lighting from all over our large home, and much more.......
Back to train controls - One of the things that has kept me away from DCC is the poor ergonomics of most all of the wireless throttles on the market.
That problem is amplified for me, since I have no interest in blowing horns or whistles, ringing bells, turning lights on and off, playing station announcements, or activating coupler sound effects......so all those extra buttons are a waste for me.
Activating turnouts - Many years ago, I entered a "Small layout planning contest" sponsored by our hosts, MR. The small layout I designed incorporated a design for a tethered hand held throttle that also included a control sytem for the limited number of turnouts on the that small layout - I thought it was a great idea - I never built it.
Fast forward to about ten years ago, I had the opportunity to help design and build a large layout for a friend, with DCC and DCC controlled turnouts - Digitrax. Using the Digitrax wireless throttle to throw turnouts is by far the worst process I have had to use to control turnouts on any layout - push five tinny buttons, have to find/know the turnout number, know its "normal" position - no thank you.
I prefer actual buttons, on control panels - in my case local "tower" panels located around the layout - simple diagrams with lighted buttons that clearly display the selected route - and require the push of only one button in most cases to set up entire routes.
AND, the mainline tower panel controls are redundantly duplicated on the main dispatchers panel.
I say if someone likes using a smart phone or a tablet as a throttle, good for them.
I like real buttons, in fact I see touch screens as a neccesary evil of current high tech - they really don't like me, I can't successfully use a smart phone - my fingers alway activate the wrong action - or they don't work at all. My tablet, with larger virtual "buttons", is tolerable.
I like real buttons - or knobs - the push button controls on my Aristo wirelsss radio throttles are very nice - and simple. The LED lighted push buttons on my control panels are easy to see and use, and the system they control allows for as many redundant locations for any button as operations would require.
I still say that the guy who designs a really good DCC throttle will not only make a mint, but will be responsable for moving DCC into its next level of acceptance and use.
But there in lies the problem - some want simple, some want complex - how do you get good versions of both in one throttle? And still be able to do what most users want?
No offense to our European friends, but I have no interest in the "minimalist" approach to model railroading. I don't live is small cramped space, I'm not taxed completely into poverty, and I like lots of model action and my layout room is bigger than many European apartments - it is 1,000 sq feet.
Pictures of my 130 locos would simply not be a practical way to select motive power and assign it to a throttle - and the typical DCC process of entering long sequences of buttons with the loco numbers is not really any better.
On my DC layout, I look at a control diagram, and push a single button that connects the desired loco/train to the throttle in my hand - there are ten wireless throttles layout wide.
That is enough, the track plan only supports the safe and comfortable movement of ten trains at a time......
Pretty easy - look at the desired train, identify its location on the diagram, push the correct button for the throttle in your hand - or, if the dispatcher is on duty - he does it for you.....
Tech is relative - the control system I have designed for my layout has the following features:
Wireless radio throttles with "soft start/stop" minimal momentum.
Constant brightness headlights that come on before locos move, and can be kept on after they stop.
Pulse Width Modulation motor control
Dectection, Signaling and CTC - or independent walk around operation
Collision avoidance/Automatic Train Control - if a train runs a red signal, it simply stops
True working interlocking signals
One button route control of turnouts.
All of this is done in DC without any computers or processors. I do use solid state radio throttles, and solid state detectors - the rest is done with relays.
I actually considered DCC and DC computerized block control very seriously, but the current system meets my neeeds for far less investment than either of those others systems.
I will say this, after having wireless throttles, I could never go back to fixed or tethered throttles, and I have never understood those with fixed location DCC throttles - If you are moving enough trains to neeed DCC, you need wireless throttles.......but that's just me.....
No need for speed matching here, everything I need and want to "consist" runs just fine together on simple DC.
Snob radius? - well I would not build an HO model railroad with less than 36" radius curves, most of mine are even bigger than that - quess I'm a snob.......with quiet DC powered trains........
Sheldon
richhotrain The trouble with smart phones and tablets is that now you need an interface like JMRI. Just seems more complicated than using the DCC system's throttle. Rich
The trouble with smart phones and tablets is that now you need an interface like JMRI. Just seems more complicated than using the DCC system's throttle.
I use a DCC system MADE for wireless and tethered throttles; The ROCO Z21!
The biggest trouble was plugging in the cables to the layout.....
I can use my smartphone, tablet, Lenz handheld, Roco's new WiFi throttle etc....
And I can control my switch motors AND get occupancy detecting, ALL on my tablet!
So please, stay DC or old DCC, but I will never go back to it.
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
Or you can be like me and stick with one brand of decoder so they are all the same to start with
Although that is not strictly true if I buy some pre-installed, some OEMs change the function settings around from the defaults used on the other sound projects. I only use lights, horn, and bell plus mute/startup anyway.
jalajoie BMMECNYC What does a phone tell me that an NCE Procab doesn't? For one you can label each function button to your liking. I use my iPod as an universal throttle when operating on a Digitrax or NCE layout.
BMMECNYC What does a phone tell me that an NCE Procab doesn't?
What does a phone tell me that an NCE Procab doesn't?
For one you can label each function button to your liking.
I use my iPod as an universal throttle when operating on a Digitrax or NCE layout.
You can map each function button on your locomotive to your liking, so that they perform the same function (for the most part, certain decoders excepted) for all locomotives.
Although I never considered 30-inch curves "snob" territory, shall I cry "Uncle"?
Deal!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761I cook my pork shoulder about 10 hours on high in my slow cooker
I don't have room to be a radius snob so I have to settle for being a BBQ snob.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
forester6291 After the brussels sprouts and the liver and onions,Don't forget to take your cod liver oil
After the brussels sprouts and the liver and onions,Don't forget to take your cod liver oil
My mother was a health food fanatic when I was growing up in the 1970's, although cod liver oil was something she never did.
Now I do have "fond" memories, ok, not so fond memories of liver. Liver is one of those things my mom used to like to torment us with when I was still a teen at home in California. Sometimes she didn't get all the veins out and when you swallowed a piece, due to the vein it would still be connected to the other piece till in your mouth - that would cause a gag reflex so I would have to quickly swallow the unchewed piece to not choke on it. Ug! Yes, liver was always on my most hated food list.
So by the time I was like 18, I was working at Taco Bell then. I had an evening shift coming and could smell liver cooking down stairs in the kitchen. This time knowing I could fix myself a burrito at work, I climbed out of my sisters upstairs bedroom window and onto the roof - across to the garage and down the side to the ground. Went in, got on my bicycle and quietly left to ride downtown Davis to work. Yep, Taco Bell beats liver for supper any day!
Ah, the memories of the olden days. I only wish I would have photographed the SP passing through town too. *sigh* That would have been about 1977 - while SP was still in it's prime.
carl425 I don't like brussel sprouts. Anybody claiming to like them is lying. They only eat them to prop up their "more health conscious than me" superiority complex.
I don't like brussel sprouts. Anybody claiming to like them is lying. They only eat them to prop up their "more health conscious than me" superiority complex.
Some eat bussel sprouts and other veggies cause the want to try to live long and prosper. My wifey from England fixes me brussel sprouts and well, I eat them along with cooked cabbage and broccoli and carrots. You know - happy wife, happy life. =D I really can't complain, she is way more supportive of my hobby the the ex. Just sayin. BTW, if you pour a butter and cheese sauce over brussel sprouts, they can taste surprisingly good!
And BTW, I use my smartphone as the "throttle" on my ceramic cooker during the 18 hours my pork shoulders are smoking.
Where I live a smoker out back might disappear but I cook my pork shoulder about 10 hours on high in my slow cooker - 1 cup of apple cider vinegar, a packet of McCormack "slow cooker" Pulled Pork seasoning and a half bottle of BBQ sauce. My buddy who had a brother who worked at Dinosaur BBQ in Syracuse passed that on to me. Melts in your mouth! mmm!
Personally I don;t care - I manage my speed the old fasioned way, watchign how fast my loco passes known points, and I really don;t care what number the throttle is display for speed step. I also avoid the inferior decoders that don;t support CV2-6-5 simple speed tables and tune most of my locos so that full throttle is some reasonable speed based on the type of loco it is - no 100 smph switchers. But exact calibrate them all? Forget it. No point. Same with speed matching for consists. Close works perfectly fine - I dont get the demand to have everythign run in lockstep. Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. No one did that in DC< because you couldn't, yet plenty of DC operators run multi-unit consists. ANd it works fine. DCC is not different.
rrinker DigitalGriffin A NCE throttle can't report your estimated running scale speed. (I'm still working the kinks out of that) Sure you can - just tune all your locos so that the speed step is the SMPH. Or just run MTH and QSI, which have an option like that already set. --Randy
DigitalGriffin A NCE throttle can't report your estimated running scale speed. (I'm still working the kinks out of that)
A NCE throttle can't report your estimated running scale speed.
(I'm still working the kinks out of that)
Sure you can - just tune all your locos so that the speed step is the SMPH.
Or just run MTH and QSI, which have an option like that already set.
You want to come over and help me program the speed table on all my locos?
Personally I love DCC. This is my first layout since I was a kid when we were full DC. While I loved the DC then, DCC has massive benefits as far as my situation. I use a wheelchair to get around so it allows me to control a lot more on my funky layout set up in the garage. I think it's all just personal preference.
I know my dad who is 74 this year.....was not all the keen on it. But helping him through that learning curve, now he is completely hooked! He can't believe all he can do with the wireless controller. And although it's completely overwhelming for him, he only uses what he wants. So the DCC allows me to run like a crazy person with all the bells and whistles, but still allows dad to run it like a newer DC type set up. I think the best time I saw dads eye's go wide and a huge smile was when I consisted about 5 of our SP locos together and crawled them by him with bells and whistles. Pretty cool.
I'm sold on DCC and can't even imagine ever running DC again. But they both have their pro's and con's. Mmmmmm......bacon.
BMMECNYC As far as locomotion, one of the few things I hate, and I mean hate, is touch screen sliding throttle control. I will take my NCE knob over a smart phone any day.
As far as locomotion, one of the few things I hate, and I mean hate, is touch screen sliding throttle control. I will take my NCE knob over a smart phone any day.
Don't know about i-Things and WiThrottle, but the Android phone I use as a throttle with Engine Driver has a physical rocker-type volume control that can be used for speed control. The on-screen slider is still there, but you don't have to use it (I don't).
Jack W.
Im going to go with an overlay system that provides signaling independent of the DCC system, touch screen consisting, and touch screen turnout control. As far as locomotion, one of the few things I hate, and I mean hate, is touch screen sliding throttle control. I will take my NCE knob over a smart phone any day. What does a phone tell me that an NCE Procab doesn't? Besides, don't you get into trouble on real railroads for playing games on your phone while you drive your train?
gregc richhotrain But all of these electronic gizmos provide me with some element of control or critical information. I just come up short when it comes to thinking how smart phones and tablets can help me run my layout any better than I already do. i make the mistake of thinking i'm behind the times when i'm not doing what everyone else seems to be doing because of all the media/forum attention. Not everyone participates in all aspects of any hobby (e.g. handlaid track/turnouts, scenery, weathering, wiring, power control, signals, automation, scratch built locomotives, structures, bridges, home built DCC system, ...). DIY is not necessarily cheaper when considering time, but can be very satisfying. i fly sailplanes. nothing more basic. stick and rudder. no motor. But some pilots want the "glass cockput", the computerize instrument panel. I bet every hobby from cooking to gardening has a techie side to it.
richhotrain But all of these electronic gizmos provide me with some element of control or critical information. I just come up short when it comes to thinking how smart phones and tablets can help me run my layout any better than I already do.
i make the mistake of thinking i'm behind the times when i'm not doing what everyone else seems to be doing because of all the media/forum attention.
Not everyone participates in all aspects of any hobby (e.g. handlaid track/turnouts, scenery, weathering, wiring, power control, signals, automation, scratch built locomotives, structures, bridges, home built DCC system, ...).
DIY is not necessarily cheaper when considering time, but can be very satisfying.
i fly sailplanes. nothing more basic. stick and rudder. no motor. But some pilots want the "glass cockput", the computerize instrument panel.
I bet every hobby from cooking to gardening has a techie side to it.
richhotrainBut all of these electronic gizmos provide me with some element of control or critical information. I just come up short when it comes to thinking how smart phones and tablets can help me run my layout any better than I already do.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading