Thats exactly what i was needing to know. Thanks Randy I will make sure to not hook the track wires to live layout wires. I know i could put a double pole switch to an isolated section but knowing me my absent mindedness would forget to switch the pr3 off and would fry my pr3. Im going to just create a siding completely isolated from the layout and hook the track wires to that. Im excited to start seeing all that i can do with my pr3. Thanks again Randy
You do not want any chance for track power to feed into the track terminals of the PR3. It will damage it. The SAFEST thing to do is connect a short piece of track to the PR3, a piece of track that is NOT part of the layout, to use for programming directly. You can at the same time have a Loconet cable from the PR3 to your system, anywhere (except the front jack of a UP5), it doesn't matter.
In JMRI, you can create multiple device profiles, or just use a menu option to switch PR3 mode between standalong programmer and Loconet interface, so you don;t have to worry about the PR3 instructions about holding down buttons and looking for an LED to 'blink' or 'wink'. You can just leave the power supply connected to the PR3 at all times. It does not NEED the power supply when working as a Loconet interface device, but having the power supply hooked up will not hurt anything.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks everyone for all the great information. I finally installed a psx 1 just as the diagram shows and everything seems to be working great so far. I now have one more question for ya'll. I want to move my pr3extra to my layout room instead of my work bench. What is the best way to do so with my setup? Could i just hook it up to loconet and then run the track a and b lines to either my buss or track? or do I hook the pr3extra track wires directly to track in one of my blocked off sections so i could isolate the pr3 when i want to use it? i guess my main question is (is it ok for the pr3 to be hooked into the power of the layout while im in operation of the whole layout? thanks again
bnsf0823 When you say connect the psx-ar directly to the db150 does that mean the input of the psx-ar gets connected directly to the db150 and the output gets connected to the buss of the reversing loop?
When you say connect the psx-ar directly to the db150 does that mean the input of the psx-ar gets connected directly to the db150 and the output gets connected to the buss of the reversing loop?
What I do on my layout is to run a pair of bus wires out of the booster to a terminal block. From the terminal block, I run a separate pair of bus wires to the input side of the PSX and each PSX-AR. I then run a separate pair of bus wires from the output side of the PSX and each PSX-AR. The bus wires running from the output side of each PSX-AR are used to connect the feeder wires from each reversing section. The bus wires running from the output side of the PSX are used to connect the feeders from the non-reversing section of your layout.
By doing so, separate power districts are created, and each power district is protected by a circuit breaker. Incidentally, you should take note of the fact that a PSX-AR is both an auto-reverser and a circuit breaker. A PSX is just a circuit breaker.
Rich
Alton Junction
You break the layout into power districts. Each district is fed by the output of a PSX curcuit breaker. The input of all the PSX's comes from the booster. The reverse loops are also power districts but they are fed by the PSX-AR.
Like this:
Ignore the common rail example and hook up section B like section A.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Im still working on getting a diagram of my layout to you all. But after reading your last posts have a few more questions. When you say connect the psx-ar directly to the db150 does that mean the input of the psx-ar gets connected directly to the db150 and the output gets connected to the buss of the reversing loop? The way i have it is a seperate buss for each the loop,helix,loop the psx-ar input is connected to the helix buss and the output is connected to the loop. This is the same on the upper loop and the lower loop. After reading your posts this sounds like it might be part of my problem. But if i connect the input of the psx-ar directly to the db150 how will it know if the polarity is reversing or not? i am so much more of a visualizer. Pictures will show me much more. I think what your saying is i need to hook my psx-ars directly to my db150 and a psx to my db150. Which then i would run the buss wires from the output of those units to the track on my layout. Right?
I have two PSX-ARs on my layout. When I turn the power on to my layout, they will snap to the 'home' position if they are not aldeady there. If there is a short in the block where the PSX-AR gets its power from, they will return to 'home' position as soon as power is restored.
The circut breaker that is built in protects the track inside the loop.
I think that we all agree. The two reverse loops are each a separate power district protected by a PSX-AR. The rest of the layout (i.e., the the non-reversing section) should be a third power district protected by a PSX circuit breaker. And, turn off the auto-reverse function on the DB150.
No, I think we understand you just have the two PSX-ARs, what at least I am suggesting is that you ADD a PSX to protect the rest of the layout so that no track is directly connected to the DB150. That way when a short happens elsewhere on the layout, it will have no effect on the PSX-ARs.
So the 2 PSX-AR provide protection (and reversing) to the loops only?
And they are the only protection, other than on the booster itself?
Then the first thing I'd do is get a 3rd breaker to protect everything except the loops. Wire so that each of the 3 (2 PSX-AR and the new, 3rd CB) gets power directly from the -150. Then see if the problems go away. This may not completely solve things, but should improve them.
If cost is a problem, it is possibe to wire one PSX-AR to cover both loops so long as no more than one train at a time moves into or out of BOTH loops. Then the other PSX-AR can be set to be a circuit breaker only (I think this is possible, but it's been awhile since I looked at the docs) for the rest of the layout?
Note that running two reversing sections on a single PSX-AR is less than ideal. It did work for me for a year or two until I was able to upgrade and add a second PSX-AR for the other reversing section.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
After reading all of your threads. I have come to the conclusion that you guys all have a dizzing intelect. I am going to draw a whole diagram of my layout and the wiring and then we will see what all you dcc geniuses think. Maybe you could give me some good ideas on wiring it a little more bullet proof. You all know that its more fun to run trains when they run alot more flawless. Thanks for all your input on this subject. I should repost shortly with a diagram.
I must have lead you guys wrong somewhere. I dont even have a psx just two psx-ar units. One for the top and one for the bottom. I only use them as auto-reversers. The DB150 is my command station for my whole layout. The short will happen even if the train is within the loop. i have them both set at 3.81 amps.
Thanks, ill check opt. switch 3 to make sure it's not in autoreverse mode.
It does make sense if the auto-throw feature of the PSX-AR has a 'default' position that it will alsways move the Tortoise to when it powers up - if it happens to be thrown the other way due to the last train through the loop and it loses power because the booster feeding it drops, then when it all powers back on, the switch will be set the wrong way.
If the rest of the layout were also protected with a seperate breaker, thsi wouldn;t happen. Ideally there should probably be multiple power districts ot eh main, as this sounds liek a fairly large layout. But even just one PSX unit, between the DB150 and everythign ont he layout that is NOT connected to the PSX-ARs, would do the trick. The output of the DB150 would go ONLY to the PSX-ARs and the PSX. A short ont he main would not affect either PSX-AR. A Short in the loop would trip that one PSX-AR but the main and the other loop would be unaffected.
MisterBeasley richhotrain My understanding is that if you put a PSX-AR downstream from another circuit breaker (say, a PSX), you will create a conflict. Rich
richhotrain My understanding is that if you put a PSX-AR downstream from another circuit breaker (say, a PSX), you will create a conflict. Rich
My understanding is that if you put a PSX-AR downstream from another circuit breaker (say, a PSX), you will create a conflict.
Let's say, the PSX-AR is left at the default trip current of 3.81 amps. The DB150 is 5 amps. So, the circuit breaker between the PSX-AR and the DB150 has to be somewhere between 3.82 amps and 4.9 amps. But, the closest settings for the PSX trip current are 3.81 amps and then 5.08 amps.
The other problem is that the DB150 serves as both a booster and an auto-reverser, so if the PSX-AR is downstream, it would seem to me that the auto-reverser function has to be turned off on the DB150.
If the other breaker is non-reversing, you won't get a polarity conflict, but you may need to adjust trip currents so the "right" device handles shorts.
In general, though, you should not daisy-chain breakers or auto-reversers. They should all come directly off the booster or base station, and in an ideal situation the booster should ONLY be connected to tracks through either a breaker or an auto-reverser. The trip current for any of these should be set lower than the booster so that the booster itself never has to handle a short and should never shut down.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I suspect it is a bus wiring issue as people surmise. If that is the case, add a jumper around the other units and temporarily power the PSX-AR directly from the booster/command station. If the problem goes away, then consider a permament rewire to resolve the problem.
BTW, I think I'm correct in saying that in general, not just in this particular case, it will avoid mysterious problems, by wiring all circuit breakers to the bus without passing through anything else. With auto-reversers, not all include a CB like PSX-AR does, so those would be the exception. If a CB is included like on the PSX-AR then it, too, needs a direct uniterrupted feed.
Correspondingly, if you have parts of the layout that are fed directly, but which do not have a CB, when they cause the booster/command station to trip, they would essentially cause the same symptoms if you have a PSX-AR. I ran across this when my DCC was new, as I tried to cheap out with fewer CBs, but making sure all track is protected by a CB ensures that when there's a short, only the affected power zone goes down.
Randy's suggestion will solve the problem as described. Everything is actually working exactly as it should be. But, when a short occurs elsewhere on the layout, NOT in a reverse loop, the DB150 shuts down. Since the PSX-ARs are powered by the DB150, they shut down, too. When they power up, they throw the turnouts they control to their "power-up default" position, which may be different from where they were, thus derailing trains which may be on them at the time. The key is to put another breaker (non-reversing) between the DB150 and the track so that breaker handles all other shorts and the DB150 itself never shuts down.
Now, sir, why are there shorts occurring elsewhere on the layout? Do they happen on Peco turnouts, by any chance?
gmpullman Is it possible that the DB150 is acting like an auto reverser, too, and conflicting with the PSX-AR? You can change option switch 3 to make the DB150 NON auto reversing which would probably be a better choice if you are using downstream auto reversers. http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB266/db150-option-switch-table/ Just a possibility to explore, Ed
Is it possible that the DB150 is acting like an auto reverser, too, and conflicting with the PSX-AR?
You can change option switch 3 to make the DB150 NON auto reversing which would probably be a better choice if you are using downstream auto reversers.
http://www.digitrax.com/tsd/KB266/db150-option-switch-table/
Just a possibility to explore, Ed
I did some research on this problem, and I noticed that the OP has started several threads on this and related issues over the past 3 or 4 years. If that is correct, then this has been an ongoing problem, never quite resolved.
I have several PSX-AR units on my layout, and they work just fine. But the key, as Randy has mentioned, is to let the PSX-AR handle the short caused by reverse polarity without interference from other competing units. In other words, the PSX-AR requires direct power input from the main bus and should not be connected upstream to other circuit breakers or other auto-reversing units. And, as Ed suggests in the preceding reply, if the DB150 is also acting as an auto-reverser, problems and conflicts will occcur.
Before messing with the trip current settings on the PSX-AR, I would take a closer look at the placement of all gaps that isolate the reverse loops and at the sufficiency of feeders inside the reverse loops. The default setting on the PSX-AR is 3.81 amps, and that default setting should work just fine when preceded by a 5 amp booster such as the DB150.
But, the bigger issue is the placement of the PSX-AR in relation to the DB150. If the DB150 is set to act as an auto-reverser, that would seem to be the problem. The PSX-AR is both a circuit breaker and an auto-reverser. No other circuit breaker or other auto-reverser should be in-line in front of the PSX-AR. The PSX-AR should only be in line with a non-reversing booster.
On my layout, I use a 5 amp NCE booster. I have four reversing sections, each controlled by a PSX-AR. I also have four other power districts, each controlled by a PSX circuit breaker. All of these PSX and PSX-AR units are preceded by the 5 amp booster, but no PSX-AR is preceded by a separate PSX circuit breaker, nor is any PSX-AR preceded by another PSX-AR.
rrinker You probably should have some regular circuit breakers for the rest of the layout with nothing driven directly off the booster. --Randy
You probably should have some regular circuit breakers for the rest of the layout with nothing driven directly off the booster.
I'd recommend that, too. What's happening is that the DB150 is completely shutting down, killing all power to the input side of the PSX-AR. It must then reset, and it appears it has a default position for the turnouts on power-up. I don't have a PSX-AR myself, so I don't know if that's true. OK - I looked it up. CV52 sets the direction of the controlled turnout on power-up, but there is no option for "leave it the way it was."
If you use a separate breaker (or breakers if the layout is large enough to divide into districts) then those other shorts will be handled by that breaker, not the DB150, and the PSX-AR's will not reset.
The only short the PSX-AR should react to is one in the section it controls. If a short occurs upstream it will power off, but it should act like it was shorted.
I agree, it sounds like the gaps are too close to the switches.
Are the switches DCC compatable?
Mr. B is right. We need to know more about the track arrangement and how you have the PSX-AR's hooked up.
I'd add that know more about where the loops are gapped in relation to the turnouts would help, too. I have a suspicion your gaps are too close to the turnout or the trains you're running are longer than the gapped section of the loop - or at least too long in relation to their speed in approaching the turnout before it throws.
no, i dont have them connected together. I have them in two completely different loops. My layout is a double decker with a helix to go from one deck to the next. The problem is caused by another train maybe going through a turnout in anothother part of the layout and triggering a small short which causes my DB150 to beep twice and then power back up. The psx-ar reacts to the shorts which in turn will actuate the turnout of the mouth of the loop. If a train is going through one of those two turnouts it causes derailments.
Are you talking about the normal action of the PSX-AR when a train reaches the other end of the loop and the reverser is supposed to flip the loop polarity, or are these shorts caused by something else?
The two PSX-AR units should not be connected to each other - no daisy chaining because one loop is inside the other. Without a track diagram, I can't tell if that's the case, but such an arrangement would result in the two units "fighting" each other over polarity.
I am having problems with shorting on my ho scale layout. It is powered with the DB150 and i have two loops upper and a lower that i use psx-ar's connected to turnouts. The problem i am having is the train or cars will short the system and it beaps for a second then everything powers back on engines and all, but the psx-ar's are throwing the turnouts and sometimes i have a train going through the turnout and it switches and causes my cars to derail. Do i need to turn up the trip on the psx-ar's or the DB150 or does this sound like a whole different problem than that? The trains run fine till something shorts them usually happens on turnouts it seems. Also could you explain what the trip settings do? i know the psx goes by amps all the way up to like 15 or something but what exactly does that mean. Thanks still trying to figure out all this dcc.