This is not quite as straightforward as the subject line implies.
What I have is a moderate sized (8'x20') two mainline HO layout. The layout is 30+ years old, originally built (obviously) as DC, with the usual insulated blocks. Each mainline track is about 100' with eight blocks each. The layout has been recently rebuilt, replacing all track & turnouts, adjusting/improving grades, clearances & leveling. All of the wiring has been replaced & upgraded to 10 gauge stranded copper throughout with each track section having its own pair of 18 gauge feeders, a minimum of five per block (= 10 gauge equivalent).
For power and control I'm using a pair of MTH DCS Commander & MTH Z-1000 5 amp/18 volt AC "brick" power supplies, one for each mainline track.
I'm currently still using DC but will implement DCC soon.
Both mainlines are isolated from each other (although there are crossover turnouts so the trains can switch tracks - right now not allowed, pinned closed) and all the original blocks were retained (both rails gapped).
I'm considering the Digitrax Super Chief Xtra Duplex Radio Starter Set. My local railroad club (Elmhurst, IL) uses Digitrax so that's one of my reasons for choosing Digitrax.
I'm confused as to what I need, or if I can actually do what I want to do.
I want to use both Z-1000 power supplies for a total of 10 amps available. I want to do this so I can keep DC operation on one or both tracks since most of my locos are still DC. However, I'm wondering if I can connect these two power supplies to the Digitrax DCS100 Command Station/Booster. Can I use one DCS100 with the two MTH Commanders for both tracks when using DCC or should I be using one DCS100 plus a second DCS100 or DB150 and somehow split the DCC signals to each MTH Commander?
The objective is to be able to run DC, DCS or DCC on one or both tracks in any combination, still have 10 amps of power available, use one DCC throttle (or would I need two?).
H E L P !!!!!!
Don't do that.
Yes, it can be done, but one mistake and you can fry decoders and even your DCC base station. You must never allow even a remote possibility that DC tracks and DCC tracks might be bridged so they connect. I know. "But I'll never, ever run a train over that crossover between DC and DCC." OK, but what happens if you drop a pair of pliers across the tracks? Suppose you have a derailment and a passenger car ends up half on one track and half on another. The sparks could be impressive. You might get an interesting "fzzzzt" sound, too, but you won't like the smell of burning electronics at all.
What you can do is use one double-pole, double-throw, center-off toggle to select either DC or DCC for the entire layout. But, don't try to go half-and-half on the two loops. That's inviting disaster.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
"Suppose you have a derailment and a passenger car ends up half on one track and half on another. "
OK. Good point. I hadn't thought of that.
The MTH DCS Commander has a DCC pass-thru. I guess I'm wondering what I need on the DCC side of the equation to "pass-thru" each DCS Commander on each mainline. Or isn't that possible (or I shouldn't do that)? Would I be using one DCS Commander with DCC pass-thru for both tracks?
Actually, I don't have any MTH DCS locos yet but plan to. It would be nice to use all their features.
If you have no DCS engines at this point and you want to run DCC engines, I'd advise not even bothering to put DCS on your system. Most newer DCS engines will run on DCC, but DCC engines will not run on DCS.
How many engines do you now have?
When I came back to the hobby 10 or so years ago, I also planned to be able to run DC and DCC by flipping a few toggles. Once I ran my first DCC train, though, I put the old DC powerpack away and never re-connected it to the tracks again. I've been DCC ever since.
Instead of putting a lot of effort into complicated re-wiring, I'd suggest taking one of your DC engines and installing a decoder. Suddenly, this "old friend" will become a "new friend," with it's potential unlocked. If you go with a sound decoder, well, uh oh. That's when I found that my non-sound engines became roundhouse queens while my sound engines got all the mainline time.
NO, on so many levels. I think this question alone made my eye twitch.
Supposidly at one time you could hook a DCC system in series with a HO DCS commander system and the DCS would pass the DCC signal through unless it had to send a DCS specific command. And you can run DC using bit stretching for 1 single loco.
THEY ARE ALL HORRIBLY AWEFULLY UNERGONOMIC, DANGEROUS GLITCHY BAD IDEAS. And I wouldn't put more than 2, or 3 amps max to any block. You risk permenently damaging your locos during a short situation.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
DCS locos = none yet but want to get some GEVO's (cool lights), maybe a couple Pennsy steam.
DCC locos = pair of Broadway Limited Centipedes, T1, 2 GE U30, one SD40, E6A/B and a pair of Athearn Genesis F45.
DC locos = ? 100+ ?
I assume when converting DCC-ready locos to DCC I don't have to use a sound decoder/install sound and still use them in a consist with newer sound equiped locos? Installng sound seems like a lot of work/trouble from what I've read.
DigitalGriffinAnd I wouldn't put more than 2, or 3 amps max to any block. You risk permenently damaging your locos during a short situation.
Don makes a good point here. You don't actually have 10 amps, but rather two 5-amp systems, but still, that's a lot. Since you've got a lot of trackage, consider getting a few circuit breaker modules to subdivide your layout into power districts and limit the power going to any individual track.
"NO, on so many levels. I think this question alone made my eye twitch."
LOL, it's making my eyes twitch too!
I guess my problem is over the last 5-7 years I've bought a lot of DCC-ready locos with the intention of eventually going DCC. But now it seems if I want sound the DCC-ready thing is not so simple. As in my previous post I assume I can still run DCC-ready locos that have been upgraded with a non-sound decoder with DCC sound locos in a consist?
ArtoI assume when converting DC ready locos to DCC I don't have to use a sound decoder/install sound and still use them in a consist with newer sound equiped locos? Installng sound seems like a lot of work/trouble from what I've read.
Yes, you can consist sound and non-sound DCC engines together. I've got several consists like that on my layout.
I've done a number of decoder installations, both sound and non-sound. The issue is always finding space inside the shell. If you've got steam engines with empty tenders or older Athearn blue-box engines with a lot of space inside, even a sound installation is a piece of cake.
I've also paid someone else to install a sound decoder in one particularly tight switcher. That was well worth the expense.
I know what's going to happen.
Once you start running with DCC, you will gradually abandon DC completely. The DC engines will sit on a shelf, but you will occasionally pull out one of the truly DCC-ready ones, the ones with decoder plugs, and upgrade it. You may have a few engines that require wire-in, and those will take longer.
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. And you'll love it.
Vitually all of the locos I would want/consider installing sound on in addition to the DCC upgrade are locos that were factory delivered in DCC-ready or DCC with sound. I assume this might be a much easier task (than tackling something that wasn't made for DCC & sound in the first place)?
"DCC Ready" sounds good, but there is nothing like an NMRA standard for what that term means.
If the engine has a DCC plug inside, then usually all you need to do is remove the little jumper plug, plug in a decoder and put the shell back on for a basic decoder install. In some cases, you might need to replace the original circuit board with a board-mounted decoder, but that's pretty easy, too.
Unfortunately, the term used to mean something a bit less convenient, usually that the motor was isolated from the frame, but you still needed to wire in the decoder. It's not quite as simple, but once you've done a few of them you'll ask yourself what you were so afraid of in the first place.
If I had a DC layout and 100 DC locos and I thought seriously about DCC so I could have sound, I would redesign my current layout or build a new layout with separate track for DC and DCC and never think about mixing the two on the same track.
What about DCS you ask? What about DCS? Forget about DCS.
Just keep your DC and DCC operations separate.
Hey, you asked.
Rich
Alton Junction
I have 1 DCS loco. At some point I will probably just rip out the DCS electronics and put in a Loksound decoder and avoid the hassles. It mostly works fine on DCC, but it's an AB set and since they are drawbar coupled I just use the same address - however the sound shuts off completely if the current is interrupted (most DCC sound decoders do not do this, or are configurable) and if only 1 of them stops making sounds, turning the sounds back on for the dead one then shuts off the sounds on the runnign one. Endless loop, until I tip one off the rails to make them both shut down and then start them both up again. Annoying. And the fancy lights it has aren't prototypical. Class lights are either red or green. Red is potentially usable. Green, on a freight - not very common. White would be useful, although not really for my prototype. The operating couplers - fairly useless. They uncouple fine, but to get them to couple you have to slam into the cars pretty hard. Not the way I want to run my trains.
There are DCC modern locos that have proper alternating ditch lights for US practice, cab lights, number boards, and the headlights, plus all the sounds.
Many of the extras you can't access on a DCS loco are station announcements, train wreck sounds, barnyard sounds, and projecting your voice through the loco - don't miss not having those 'features'.
Bottom line - DCC, forget the DCS. Or save it for some hi-rail DCS locos. Wire a center off DPDT toggle to switch the entire layout between DC and DCC. Do not mix the two by wiring DCC to an unused cab of the DC cab control - crossing the border between a block set for DC and a block set for DCC, even if it is accidental, can damage the DC power pack if it's transistorized, the DCC booster, and/or the loco involved. Or melth the wiring right out of a lighted passenger car if that's what crosses the gaps. By setting up a switch at the top level (the center off type makes sure that the connection to DC is broken before the connection to DCC is made, and vice-versa), you either run the layotu on DC, or run the layout on DCC. This is the safe way to do things. Eventually you will find yourself never using the DC position.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks guys,
Looking into this further, I see the prices on decent "mobile" (whatever that is) decoders is in the $25-$35 range. It's a no brainer to just spend a couple hundred bucks and pop these into a few Athearn Genesis and Proto 2000, buy the said starter kit and just go DCC. Some passenger cars will need to have the lights pulled but they always flickered a lot so no grief here. DCC should get rid of that problem too.
OK, ran across something else I was not aware of. Instead of trying to have the ability to use DC and DCC as an either/or option or one or the other on separate mainline tracks, I ran across something that appears to imply that I can run the old analog DC locos on DCC.
On page 16 of the Digitrax Super Chief Xtra/DT402 user manual "4.5 Select and Run An Analog Loco on Address “00”, if I understand this correctly, I can run my old analog DC locos on the DCC system?
And if the above is true, can I do the following?
Each mainline track can be wired as two power districts. So, IF, I use a Digitrax DCS100 Command Station/Booster with its own PS514 power supply connected to track 1 as one power district, and a Digitrax DB150 Booster with its own PS514 power supply connected to track 2 as a second power district, can I run an analog DC loco on one track (using address 00) and a DCC loco on track 2 with its own address?
Hello All,
ArtoEach mainline track can be wired as two power districts. So, IF, I use a Digitrax DCS100 Command Station/Booster with its own PS514 power supply connected to track 1 as one power district, and a Digitrax DB150 Booster with its own PS514 power supply connected to track 2 as a second power district, can I run an analog DC loco on one track (using address 00) and a DCC loco on track 2 with its own address?
Yes you could...but why with DCC?
DCC systems can run tens of DCC decoder equipped locomotives simultaneously from one power source and one or more controllers. You do not have to have separate power blocks as in a DC system.
To run a DC locomotive on a DCC system the DCC system produces a simulated DC signal called zero bit stretching. There are some limitations and potential for damage to the DC motor in the locomotive.
I converted my 4'x8' pike from DC; with 16-power blocks, to DCC. Subsequently I've converted my vintage DC locomotives to DCC. I've even purchased vintage DC locomotives with the specific intent of converting to DCC.
Yes, you can have multiple boosters on a single pike, and some do depending on the size of the pike and number of locomotives. If you're only planning on running 5 or 6 locomotives I think you could get by with a single 5-amp power supply.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
Yes, you can, one at a time. Some locos work better than others. Most make an annoying buzz when doing so. Leaving the DC loco stopped for any length of time will cause the motor to heat up, left too long it can damage the motor. If you have any nicer brass locos with coreless motors - NEVER set them on DCC track without a decoder, they will burn up the motor in minutes.
I do this for testing, that's about it. I do not normally run any non-decoder locos.
Arto OK, ran across something else I was not aware of. Instead of trying to have the ability to use DC and DCC as an either/or option or one or the other on separate mainline tracks, I ran across something that appears to imply that I can run the old analog DC locos on DCC. On page 16 of the Digitrax Super Chief Xtra/DT402 user manual "4.5 Select and Run An Analog Loco on Address “00”, if I understand this correctly, I can run my old analog DC locos on the DCC system? And if the above is true, can I do the following? Each mainline track can be wired as two power districts. So, IF, I use a Digitrax DCS100 Command Station/Booster with its own PS514 power supply connected to track 1 as one power district, and a Digitrax DB150 Booster with its own PS514 power supply connected to track 2 as a second power district, can I run an analog DC loco on one track (using address 00) and a DCC loco on track 2 with its own address?
You don't need two power districts to do that. In a single district, you can independently run multiple locos up to the max that particular command station allows, and with Digitrax, one of them can be an analog loco on address 00 (actually more than one analog loco, but they will all respond together as if on straight DC).
You also wouldn't necessarily need a separate booster for each section, either. It depends on the current draw of each section. In your example above (two HO locos), a DCS100 and DB150 would be overkill.
I'm late to this thread, but reading it over you seem to want to way over-complicate things.
My layout is roughly 18x20 with a 2x8 extension and another 4x6 extension. There are usually about a dozen (give or take) mostly sound locos on it at any given time.
I use a single DCS100, divided into four power sections. That's it. No multiple boosters, no isolation due to incompatible control systems/voltages/whatever. Just a single DCS100, and it all works fine.
NOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo.......I only know one person who tried the "DC/DCC" thing. After six months he said "screw it" and went 100% DCC.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Finally got a clear response from Digitrax support. They said yes, and that I only need one power district. I wasn't aware that I could do this. When I looked into this years ago it seemed that was not the case (at least for the most part).
The reason for this is I have lots of recent "DCC Ready" (Athearn Genesis, Proto 2000, etc). I don't have the time or want to spend $1000's all at once to convert all of them. I also have some "interesting" older DC locos that I might like to run on one track, and still have DCC on the other. Also, I can run 50+ car trains. My layout has mostly 2.5% (3% max) grades on curves. I will often use 5 or 6 powered locomotives per train. On one track I might have a third train running (one to three locos). The trains run smoother with no slippage this way.
On top of that, I've added a perimeter around the outside of the layout which will allow me to run two point to point tracks independent of each other. I'll be able to shuffle three trains on one line back and forth and five on the other.
I don't think 5 amps will do it. And in my experience with electronics, there's no substitute for "overkill". There's less heat produced. Heat is the bain of electronics. I don't like operating things at or near their limits in the interest of their longevity.
Randy, thanks for the heads up on the older brass stuff. I have only two of those (1970's?) and I'm pretty sure they have something like the old Kemtron motors. Honestly, they both run like crap compared to modern DC stuff so I doubt they will be seeing any action.
Now that Starbucks gets $5 for a mochalattechinowhatever, the $20 or so for a decent can motor for an older engine is chump change.And the first hardwire decoder installation I did took about an hour. Really, it's neither freakin' rocket surgery nor brain science.
How many trains do you expect to have moving at any given time? 5 amps is usually more than enough. I started with the original Zephyr, which is 2.5 amps. I was able to run 10 locos, some with sound, some without. I ran out of room to keep them all runnign withotu crashing or I may have been able to add more. The key is how many you are running at once, not how many you have, even just sitting on the track. A standing DCC loco draws very little current, just to keep teh decoder operating. Milliamps at best.