Hello everyone,
I have recently installed signals on my layout. I’ve bought signals for a layout back in the 70’s and they were the NJ International PRR style signals as well as 2 color dwarfs. I bought many of the additional signals off Ebay at very good prices. Just have to watch it all the time. I finally have a layout, and it’s DCC with a 2 track main, 2 levels and a 2 track helix. Why does this matter? While I run DCC, I’m not that into having that many things run on auto pilot or use detectors. Over the decades I built up a supply of Atlas Snap relays as I ran DC. My layout, while a 20’x20’, is very congested and needs a dispatcher while having a session. I grew up on Long Island, loved the commuter trains as well as Amtrak, and designed my layout with all of that in mind.
With the help of a friend who is knowledge in electronics, I wired up these PRR signals using the snap relays, and rotary switches. I control the signals from the panels, giving each engineer the signals to proceed as I set the route. The relays are connected to the switch machines (Atlas), and when a switch is thrown against the route a train would take, the relay overrides the rotary switch to give a ‘stop’ aspect to the signal. Not that complicated as it took him about 5 minutes to draw it up. Terminal strips in place, lots of wire, and I have a great little layout that runs well as I host more sessions. Last session was Friday night and with 4 operators, and me dispatching (no yardmaster this session since we were not working the yard), trains ran well and no head on meets or congestions occurred.
Neal
Hi
Model manufacturers very rarely make signals to suit a particular operating system.
When they do its because they also make the trains track etc.
Signaling is the bigest pain when it comes to model railroads because it changed so much and very quickly over the years.
Although there is such a thing as a std signal it is really a selection of parts that can be assembled to suit an individual situation
Its meaning can be different from one company to the next, dependant on there version of recomended signaling practices and any peculiarities that may exsist on there railroad.
About the only way to get a system that suits your railway is no odd signals
and use as much off the shelf as you can Knowing that sooner or later something or a lot will have to be made by yoursellf.
The only way to avoid that is staff working or train order working or at last resort one engine in steam working even train order working may require some signals.
The other options require nothing more than signs or in the case of one engine in steam nothing.
regards John
Because not every form of CTC uses mechanically interlocked controls?
A US&S CTC panel has switches for turnout and signal settings, but the relay logic handles the interlocking to prevent conflicting settings instead of mechanically locking the levers so you can;t pull two that would conflict. Now, you could replicate this with lots of relays and steppers, but these days it's much easier to put that logic in a board and/or computer. The DCC system, in this case Digitrax Loconet, is simply the bus line for signal transmission between the tower and the field units. It really has nothign to do with control of the trains, it's simply carrying the commands that say set switch 44 to reverse, switch 45 to normal, and set signal 45L to approach.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Let us remember that there are two kinds of signals used in railroading.
Block Signals protect the train ahead of you from your running into it. Or protects you from running into the train in front of you. Block signals are automatic, and they are normally green unless the blocks ahead are occupied.
Home or Interlocking signals are controlled by the tower or dispatcher now computerized, but formerly controlled with a CTC or other interlocking machine such as the LION's GRS model-5 machine.
The home signals are normally red and are cleared by the tower operator's moving of a lever on his machine.
Most modelers use interlocking signals tied to the operation of the turnout. This is mostly well and good, unless you want to emulate the LION by concentration on the operation of the tower. Then you will want your signals on separate leavers from those of the switches.
LION does not understand why anybody would want to run either the turnouts or the signals from the DCC system. LION cannot wrap his head around a TV remote let alone how to control the operation of an entire railroad from such a device.
Run the trains with DCC if you wish, but keep your digits off of my nice interlocking machine.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Yes, you can use any number of boards that send inputs to Loconet. There are inputs on the SE8C that can be used for that. The DS64 can do it. RR-CirKits has a few options. There's DIY boards like Hans DeLoof's LocoIO. With any of these, you can connect Tortoise contacts, or contacts from the Caboose throws, or if you use either a DIY slide switch or soemthing like the Bluepoint controls, contacts from those, or even a microswitch positioned to be activated by the throwbar. The hardware connects to Loconet and sends Loconet messages when the contacts close. You can use basically anything with a switch contact for the turnouts. Manual, toggles adn Tortoise type motors, push buttons and solenoid motors (with Atlas you'd need a Snap Relay to get contacts). DCC operation of the turnouts not needed.
Randy,
Like usual, you are spot on about the key issue in DCC: turnouts are a pain. No way around it if you wanted to sense the position: I wish there was a quad switch with Loconet interface that just provided thrown/closed reporting ("manual turnout"). You connect a caboose throw with SPDT contacts to it ...
do you know of anything like that?
NP.
That's one I don;t get - your locos have more power on DC than DCC? Something's not right with the way your DCC is set up then. Pulling power should be unaffected. Unless you have traction tires all around, any loco should slip before it stalls due to lack of pulling power, and DCC does nothing that would make a loco slip sooner, that's a function of motor power, gearing, and weight of the loco (and the type of wheels and track). Not of the power source to the motor.
Now if you are trying to run 4 and 5 powered units with a 1.5 amp DCC system, vs using a 5 amp DC power pack - there may be a slight problem.
If you already are using detection to line turnouts - you could always tie that into your signal system for more approriate indications - no greens approaching an open switch because there happens to be nothing in the next block, etc.
Not too many people use DCC to control their turnouts, it's a pain no matter what DCC system brand you have. But there are some devices, like the Digitrax DS-64, that even when you use pushbuttons to operate the turnouts, send out indications on the Loconet bus so that other devices 'see' that you've changed the turnout. So things like JMRI software can respond to the change and trigger signal changes, with no switch machine contacts or miles of wire between the switch machines and some other logic - just that one flat phone cord which you need for the throttles to plug into anyway. And if someone should use a throttle to line the switch, the software will 'see' that, too. Nothing special needs to be done, this is just the way Digitrax Loconet works. Not all systems can do this. That's why a lot of people who prefer NCE for running trains still use Loconet for their signals and detection, NCE's bus is much less robust in that regard and can't support a large layout's signals and detection.
Lion: I have read about your system in detail from other posts. Your system is incredible! The dead-rail that gets power from the train is genius. I could survive the wiring needed to make your system work. Plus I like the digital stuff ... it's all about playing in the sandbox one likes, right?
Mel: Do you integrate the positions of turnouts and route direction into your signalling?
Loconet is a Digitrax network architecture that stitches DCC components together with a network cable (6-conductor RJ11). I presently have my command station connected to:
So there's Loconet.
NP
NP01 Ah, I spent a lot if time thinking about optical detection, but could not figure out initializing the system prior to first run thru a block and also could not figure out how to connect to Loconet -- I am on a digitrax system. Are your signals hard wired through your logic board or interfaced to a computer? NP
Ah,
I spent a lot if time thinking about optical detection, but could not figure out initializing the system prior to first run thru a block and also could not figure out how to connect to Loconet -- I am on a digitrax system.
Are your signals hard wired through your logic board or interfaced to a computer?
On layout of LION (DC operation only!) the left rail is GROUND and on the right rail +vdc = forward and -vdc = reverse. Power can come from any cab.
SIGNAL detection is accomplished with reed switches between the gauge. But now LION is plotting to install more signals, and him will cut a pair of gaps in the left (ground) rail, and the free section will connect to one side of the relay. The other side of the relay will connect to the +16vdc signal bus. Train bridges the gap the relay pulls, the signal displays red, and holds the relay until the next signal is activated, and then the first relay will drop out. The choice between yellow or green is controlled by the subsequent relay.
Is SIMPLE.... LIONS *like* Simple.
Mel,
I can totally relate! I am doing automatic block detection and computer control including turnouts. Signal logic is using the Logix system in JMRI. Touch screen panels (10" android tablets) for each town in the layout are in the plan.
On my first layout, I did everything by hand.
In fact, I thought SMBKs were a bit expensive at $5 per signal, so I designed my own system of adding a phone plug at the end of each signal and plugging into a phone jack which takes it to the standard SE8C 10-conductor ribbon cable. I found this guy in Oregon who was selling 3-light, single head block signals for $9 and bought a bunch. I was tired but happy.
Then the layout had to come down for a remodel and now I am rebuilding it. Wiring is just getting a bit much, although I am doing a much better job this time around. Somehow fiddling with the magnetic wire is just not my thing. So looking for help.
I think if someone has a good workbench setup, it will be <15 minutes per signal. I have a toddler/kindergartener pair who I have to take to the basement when I work on trains so just so hard to create a setup and sit down.
Unique problem ... Unique solution is needed.
Question was really about saving time which is in short supply. I have done this with eBay bought signals and I have also scratch built a bridge with evergreen trusses.
But I just don't have the time any more and hence the question.
It's jsut not practical - there are too many types of signals, and if prewired to a Digitrax SMBK they would be restricting sales to only those people using SE8C's. What about the other signal drivers, like RR-CirKits and Team Digital, or C/MRI? It would only make signals even more expensive. It's only 4 wires for a 3 color signal. Or you could go N scale and use the masts as they come, just add target detail around the LEDs. You don;t really need the SMBK - you can buy the resistors in bulk on eBay for 1 cent each and put it all together yourself.
LION not know why ewe must buy signals, when cheap and easy are they to make of your own. OK, mine do not look all that great, but they are getting better. Any modeler whorth his time and salt can do better than a LION with big furry paws.
Here is one of the sort that I think you are looking for.
It is from an older layout, and is now falling apart.. It has a 5mm bi-color led set in a washer, and a piece of wire insulation as a visor. The washer is soldered to a 1/16" welding rod. The two conductors of the LED are attached to wires that form the ladder, and rungs were glued between them. You can now get these bi-color LEDs in 3mm sizes from All Electronics. Connect one leg, via a 1000 ohm resistor to GROUND, the other leg will be +12v dc = red; -12v dc = green; and 12v ac = amber.
LIONS like making signals, yes they take time, but with over 200 of them on the layout of him, purchasing them was not an option.
does anyone offer signals reassembled to a digitrax SMBK? I just want block signals (RYG, one head) and it's a bit tedious. I am surprised manufacturers don't do this. Signaling is one part of the hobby which is expensive and requires significant effort.