That 2V difference is also likely the best you can do given the power supply voltage. You can use that 15VAC power supply on the 5 amp system and turn the adjustment up to 18 volts but you aren't going to get 18 volts. When the AC supply is rectified in the system, you get a net gain in voltage, but then you have a voltage drop in the output drivers, so the net maximum output will be about what the input is.
The greater the difference between the input voltage and the output voltage, the more heat will be dissipated in the system. If you use an 18VAC power supply and set the track voltage to 14 volts, it will get much warmer than if you used a 15VAC power supply for the same 14 volts to the track. Usually this manifests as the system not quite delivering the full rated current before it shuts down. (might kick off at a measured 9.2 amp load instead of a full 10 amps)
The problem with the bigger (8 and 10 amp) systems in smaller scales, besides the melting issues (solved with circuit breakers), is that they are in some ways a false economy. It doesn;t cost that much more to use heavier components to make the booster deliver 8 or 10 amps instead of 5, so the cost of the units makes it seem cheap - double the power for maybe 10% more cost, what a deal! But the power supply is where they get you. Power supplies for 5 amp and lower systems are a dime a dozen - many brands of laptops use power supplies with just the right voltage and current ratings. That means they are made in the millions, if not billions. ANd that means they are CHEAP. 8 amp and 10 amp power supplies are far less common, so they cost significantly more.
Don't forget that with the two box setup you need to supply power to both. Track power comes from the booster box, the command station box feeds the program track. Both have power input - the command station still needs power to run its processor.The instructions show the hookup.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
maxman gregc Where does it say tack voltage is 2V < supply voltage? gregc But it looks like the command station controls the power supply and the supply connects directly to the track
gregc Where does it say tack voltage is 2V < supply voltage?
gregc But it looks like the command station controls the power supply and the supply connects directly to the track
The preferred transformer for the 5 amp system is a 15 VAC, 5 amp power supply. The maximum input voltage to the 5 amp system is 18VAC. The output voltage is factory set to 14 volts, and it is adjustable from 9.5 volts to 18 volts. NCE recommends setting the track voltage at no more than 16 volts.
The recommended transformer for the 10 amp system is an 18 VAC, 10 amp power supply. The maximum input voltage to the 10 amp system is 22 VAC. The output voltage is factory set to 16 volts, and it is adjustable from 9.5 volts to 18 volts. NCE recommends setting the track voltage at no more than 18 volts.
I think that the 2 volt difference between power supply and track supply is implied in that the recommended track setting on the 5 amp system is no more than 16 volts even though voltage can be adjusted up to 18 volts. If that is the case, then there would be a 4 volt difference on the 10 amp system.
Rich
Alton Junction
gregcok, I think what you meant was that you can't get 16V track voltage from a 16V supply after going thru the command station.
Yes, that's what I was trying to say.
gregcWhere does it say tack voltage is 2V < supply voltage?
I can't find that now. It was in one of the NCE documents I was looking at yesterday. But I did read it somewhere.
gregcBut it looks like the command station controls the power supply and the supply connects directly to the track
You might be correct with this. I'm used to the 5 amp system where everything is contained in one box. Looks like the 10 amp system comes in two boxes, and the wiring diagram in the 10 amp setup document does show, or implies, that the power to the track comes from the booster box, not the command station box.
As I said originally, best ones to answer this question reside at NCE.
I still think that 10 amps is way overkill for what he needs. I have the ProCab 5 amp system and rarely surpass 3 - 3.5 amps and I run 10 to 12 locos at a time (in 3 or 4 trains) pulling 50 to 80 (weighted) cars per train. My system has never shut down.
If he is going to stay with the 10 amps, he definitely should put in some circuit breakers and dial them down to 4 or 5 amps or else the first short he has some wheels are going to be welded to some rail.....
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Everything you ever wanted to know about the NCE 10 amp system is in 'ph10a.pdf '.
The pdf is at the bottom of this article https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200585719-10-amp-Setup-information 300KB
South Penn
ok, I think what you meant was that you can't get 16V track voltage from a 16V supply after going thru the command station.
But it looks like the command station controls the power supply and the supply connects directly to the track and there is no drop across the command station.
Where does it say tack voltage is 2V < supply voltage?
It makes sense to have the supply voltage adjustable so that on large layouts, where multiple supplies are needed, the track voltage in each power district is the same.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregcgregc wrote the following post 32 minutes ago: maxman You can't get more than 16 volts out of a 16 amp power supply, can you? why would you think that? do you think voltage is limited by current, or visa versa?
I don't understand your question. Reading the NCE literature, it says somewhere that the track voltage will be about 2 volts less than the power supply voltage. They recommend a (up to) 16 volt, 5 amp power supply for the 5 amp system.
So why can we not use a 16 volt, 10 amp power supply for the 10 amp system? I am assuming (always a bad thing) that there would be a similar voltage drop across the command station for the 10 amp system. So if one uses a 16 volt supply for the 10 amp system, why would I expect that the output voltage would be any higher than 16 volts minus the drop across the command station?
As a matter of fact, someplace in the 10 amp manual they recommend a 16 volt, 10 amp supply.
But then again I'm not an electrical engineer.
maxmanYou can't get more than 16 volts out of a 16 amp power supply, can you?
why would you think that?
do you think voltage is limited by current, or visa versa?
gregcThe NCE web page for the PB110A - 10 Amp Power Booster has a photo (bottom) showing where the DCC voltage can be adjusted. Page 7 (indicated) of the PB-110A Ten Amp Power Booster manual describes how to adjust the track voltage from 11.5 to 22V.
It's nice that these adjustments can be made. But wouldn't it be simpler to purchase a 16 volt, 10 amp power supply? NCE recommends a 16 volt, 5 amp power supply for the 5 amp system.
You can't get more than 16 volts out of a 16 amp power supply, can you?
Or has the power supply already been purchased?
Guys,
You're excellent! Thank you very much.
I sent him an email with a link to this thread so I'm going to call him later and get his feedback. I'll probably drop by his place this week to see how things are going.
Re: Decoders.
From what he's shown me, nearly all of the sound and non-sound decoders that he's installed in his units are Digitrax. He also has factory sound equipped units from MTH and BLI.
At the moment his layout is set up for DCC and straight DC.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Antonio,
I think they have you covered on the adjustment instructions.
Rob's suggestion to use circuit breakers to limit output is a good one. A solid short at 10 amps starts melting things pretty quickly.
Probably don't have a reason for your friend to go below 14 volts with his needs, but consider this. If he has any Micro-Tsunamis in his fleet, running at 12.5 volts will help keep them cool. He's probably more likely to have some Athearn locos with their delicate micro-bulbs. For them, running at 12.5 volts helps to significantly extend their life.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
AntonioFP45But as a quick guide: Can someone PLEASE point out where or what page the info is on in the manual to set the system for 14 volts (or whatever the standard is) for HO?
Mark Gurries from NCE has a web page discussing NMRA track voltages
The NCE web page for the PB110A - 10 Amp Power Booster has a photo (bottom) showing where the DCC voltage can be adjusted.
Page 7 (indicated) of the PB-110A Ten Amp Power Booster manual describes how to adjust the track voltage from 11.5 to 22V.
Current will fry things when there is a short. Voltage can fry an electric motor if it is too high.
Here is how to adjust the voltage on an NCE system.
https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201382575-NCE-Voltage-Settings-
richhotrain My advice is not to use the 10 amp system for an HO layout. Your friend ought to return the 10 amp system and exchange it for the 5 amp system which is better suited to HO scale. Rich
My advice is not to use the 10 amp system for an HO layout. Your friend ought to return the 10 amp system and exchange it for the 5 amp system which is better suited to HO scale.
Our club runs the five amp system and I remember about 8 to 10 sound locos pulling 3.5 amps total on the DCC amp meter.
We followed the instructions and set it to about 13.6 VAC using a DCC meter at the booster output.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
One of my modeling buddies, who is also into electronics, got a 10 amp system from NCE for his HO layout. He broke the layout into multiple power districts, each with a 5 amp circuit breaker (like the NCE EB-1), which has the capability to set a maximum capacity below 5 amps if desired. Although the base system still has the full 10 amp capacity, no one piece of track can draw more than what is set on the breaker. It works for him and he doesn't have to worry about excessive current damaging his locos.
Rob Spangler
Oh, and page 54 of the manual talks about a "power booster". Not sure what this is, but it states that it "is factory set to put out 15.5-16 volts to the track in the "normal" position and 18 volts in the "adjust" position. The adjust position (18 volts) is the correct voltage recommended by the NMRA for G Scale."
This suggests to me that there is a switch someplace.
Yes, contacting NCE is the best way to go.
That said, there is a contradiction in the power requirement section of the manual, or at least the manual found on the website: https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201565459-System-Manuals (It is the one identified as ph10A.pdf). Page 6 recommends a 18 volt, 12 amp power supply. Page 7 says a minimum 16 volt, 12 amps. I looked at the requirement for the 5 amp system, and it wants 16 volt, 6 amps.
So for HO, I would think that a 16 volt, 12 amp power supply would work.
However, the 12 amps are a problem unless he separates the railroad into separate sections, each with an appropriate breaker (maybe 3 amp?) to limit the current to the track in each section.
Please let us know what NCE says.
Hi Roger,
He has a 10 amp system.
I went to the NCE site and searched as you recommended. I found the installation information, but nothing on how to bring the voltage down.
Is there a link to that information that you can post?
You don't mention whether your friend is using the 5 amp system or the 10 amp system. If it is the 5 and he is using NCE's power supply #PB515, he is goog to go. With either 5 or 10 amp if he is using NCE's Brutus power supply he will. Need to adjust the system's voltage output. For pints ructions go first to the ncedcc web site. Othee home page click on re blue information it tom for DCC SysteS room the next page click on NCE voltage settings under Power Pro 5 amp systems.
Hi guys,
Friend of mine, who is a good guy and lone wolf modeler, purchased an NCE Pro Cab, 10amp system instead of a Power Cab for his HO layout. His intent was to have a system with enough power so that he would not have to purchase multiple boosters. He enjoys running two to three trains with 4 to 5 unit lashups, each pulling 35+ weighted cars.
From what he told me the Pro Cab system is geared towards the larger scales (G and up). From what he sees in his manual, the Pro Cab is set at 18 volts. He's worried about frying his locomotives, most which are Kato and Genesis units. He told me that he doesn't see the info in the manual where the system's voltage output can be adjusted.
I felt bad that I wasn't much help. I told him to contact NCE as well as check the forums. I'm suggesting to him that he join this one.
But as a quick guide: Can someone PLEASE point out where or what page the info is on in the manual to set the system for 14 volts (or whatever the standard is) for HO?
Any help is appreciated. I'll pass the info on to him and will urge him to join this forum asap.
Thanks guys.