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Turnout Indicators

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  • Member since
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  • From: Christiana, TN
  • 2,134 posts
Posted by CSX Robert on Saturday, August 29, 2015 7:12 PM

hobo9941

 

 
LION bought his at All Electronics, but that was 20 years ago, and I have not seen them since. Yes, they can be found on Mouser, Digi-Key and others, but in the $10+ price range.

 

Them be more than "a couple bucks". Them be more like 20 bucks for two. Whistling

Atlas relays be more like 10 bucks.

 

Did you not see the ones I posted about?  They are only $2.18 a piece quantity 1, cheaper if you buy in larger quantities.

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Posted by hobo9941 on Thursday, August 27, 2015 9:33 PM

LION bought his at All Electronics, but that was 20 years ago, and I have not seen them since. Yes, they can be found on Mouser, Digi-Key and others, but in the $10+ price range.

Them be more than "a couple bucks". Them be more like 20 bucks for two. Whistling

Atlas relays be more like 10 bucks.

  • Member since
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  • From: Bakersfield, CA 93308
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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, August 24, 2015 9:56 AM

I use Mini DPDT latching relays that plug into a DIP socket, simple and cheap.
 
 
The relays I used were $1.25 about 5 years ago, Aromat DS2E-ML2-DC5V and plug into a standard 16 pin DIP socket.  The coils are 5 volt @ 60ma. with a resistance of 83Ω =  0.3 watts.  I operate my switch machines from 18 VDC and use a 220 Ω ½ watt resistor in series with the coil, as the relay driving voltage is momentary a ½ watt resistor works without over heating.
 
  
 
Mel
 
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
  • Member since
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  • From: Christiana, TN
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Posted by CSX Robert on Monday, August 24, 2015 8:39 AM

hobo9941

 

 
I would go with low-cost latching relays.  They would be a lot cheaper than the Atlas snap-relays, only a few dollars each,

 

Where do you get latching relays for a couple dollars each? Thanks

 

Here's some:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/EC2-12TNU/399-11031-5-ND/4291097

These do state a DC coil voltage, so you might have to rectify the AC power or use a DC power source.

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Posted by CSX Robert on Monday, August 24, 2015 8:27 AM

Lion, to be clear, what you are describing is not latching relays, but instead regular relays wired in such a way that one relay is used to hold another relay in the set position.  While this is certainly one method of doing it (and may be the better method in some situations), there are two things I don't like about this method.  One - it makes the wiring more complex, at last in this situation,  and two - any time a relay is held in the set position it will continue to draw current.  Latching relays would be simpler to wire and only draw current when changing from set to reset or back.

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  • From: North Dakota
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Posted by BroadwayLion on Monday, August 24, 2015 6:56 AM

hobo9941

 

 
I would go with low-cost latching relays.  They would be a lot cheaper than the Atlas snap-relays, only a few dollars each,

 

Where do you get latching relays for a couple dollars each? Thanks

 

LION bought his at All Electronics, but that was 20 years ago, and I have not seen them since. Yes, they can be found on Mouser, Digi-Key and others, but in the $10+ price range.

LION kneaded lots of those for the system of him. Him uses 4PDT relays, and uses one of the poles as the latch, when that circuit is broken, perhaps by the next relay in the line the first returns to normal.

So for block signals when a train passes detector 1, relay 1, pole 1 goes to red, pole 4 is the holding circuit. It is broken when detetector 2 is passed, so pole 2 on relay 1 is the holding circuit for relay 0.

Pole 3 on relay 2 is enervated by the normal position of pole 1, relay 1 and returns either green (normal position) or yellow (pull position) to Signal 1.

Is that clear? LIONS like to keep things simple, and this is about as simple as it gets.

 

Of course, you wasn't interested in block signals. For turnout indication on a Twin Coil type machine using push buttons or better yet 2PDT momentary switches. You would use a 2PDT relay (unless you have more logic to control, such as frog polarity or power logic which would want a 4PDT relay). One pole controls your indication lamp. Pole 2 is your holding circuit.

On your control, the reverse position activates the coil to reverse the turnout, and also pulls the relay. The other button needs to be a Double Pole, two position device. In the normal position it would hold the relay should it have been pulled by the other button, while the active position would both return the switch points to the normal position, and would break the hold on the relay returning that to the normal position as well.

That thinks the LION is as cheap and as simple as you can make it..

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by hobo9941 on Sunday, August 23, 2015 9:50 PM

I would go with low-cost latching relays.  They would be a lot cheaper than the Atlas snap-relays, only a few dollars each,

Where do you get latching relays for a couple dollars each? Thanks

  • Member since
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  • From: Christiana, TN
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Posted by CSX Robert on Saturday, August 22, 2015 12:59 PM

MisterBeasley

 

 
rrinker
A 2-lead bicolor LED and a resistor (pretty sure the output of these is less than 12 volts, so a 1L resistor is probably too big. 680 ohms might be good) connected to each output (where the instructions say to connect the Tortoise switch motor) and programming them to use the same addresses as the LS150's would create indicators that could be mounted wherever

 

But, the user has twin-coil Atlas machines, not stall motors, so his connections are momentary and any LEDs mounted in series like you would with Tortoise machines will only light while the turnout is actually throwing, not all the time...

Randy was expanding on my idea of using additional accessory decoders to drive the indicators, not the same ones that are driving the turnouts.

  • Member since
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  • From: Bedford, MA, USA
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Posted by MisterBeasley on Saturday, August 22, 2015 10:27 AM

rrinker
A 2-lead bicolor LED and a resistor (pretty sure the output of these is less than 12 volts, so a 1L resistor is probably too big. 680 ohms might be good) connected to each output (where the instructions say to connect the Tortoise switch motor) and programming them to use the same addresses as the LS150's would create indicators that could be mounted wherever

But, the user has twin-coil Atlas machines, not stall motors, so his connections are momentary and any LEDs mounted in series like you would with Tortoise machines will only light while the turnout is actually throwing, not all the time.

I would go with low-cost latching relays.  They would be a lot cheaper than the Atlas snap-relays, only a few dollars each, and use those to drive LEDs.  I've got several of these on my layout to control indicators and they work fine.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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  • From: Knoxville, TN
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Posted by farrellaa on Wednesday, August 19, 2015 11:23 AM

My layout looks like a Christmas tree at night with room lights off! But, very informative!

BTW, I have 34 turnouts!

   -Bob

Life is what happens while you are making other plans!

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Posted by rrinker on Tuesday, August 18, 2015 3:58 PM

 I figured this would be something the OP would be interested in, since he made his turnouts all DCC controlled. Be kind of silly to bbuild a control panel with LEDs and centralize all that when he could make lanterns like yours and have the indication right at the turnout being controlled. That or block signals near each turnoug, but from the aisle side, your lanterns are easier to see.

                     --Randy 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by farrellaa on Tuesday, August 18, 2015 9:55 AM

rrinker
 
CSX Robert

2. Use additional accessory decoders programmed to the same addresses aas your switch decoders and have them setup to control the indicators.

 

 

 
 With 10 turnouts, an NCE Switch-8 and a Switch-It would give exactly 10 outputs. A 2-lead bicolor LED and a resistor (pretty sure the output of these is less than 12 volts, so a 1L resistor is probably too big. 680 ohms might be good) connected to each output (where the instructions say to connect the Tortoise switch motor) and programming them to use the same addresses as the LS150's would create indicators that could be mounted wherever - Bob's (farrellaa) switch stand lanterns is a good option.
   
 The LS150 should be able to drive a snap relay as well as the switch machine, that will require a power supply, LEDs, and resistors to wire up indications. Also pretty simple.
 
                         --Randy
 

Here's a link to the last thread I had on the LED switch stands. Just another way to show turnout direction.

   -Bob

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/248983.aspx

Life is what happens while you are making other plans!

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Posted by hobo9941 on Monday, August 17, 2015 11:49 PM

I use block signals as turnout indicators. The left green indicates the crossover up around the curve is set for the mainline. The middle green also indicates the crossover is set for the main, but the green also shows me the main is clear through the yard lead. The red signal on the right is for the yard lead, which is set for the main. The train waiting on the lead, will get a green when the lead is lined out of the yard, and the middle green signal will go to red when the yard lead is lined for the yard. I have plenty of signals all around the layout, that tell me at a glance, the position of various turnouts that I otherwise cannot see.

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, August 17, 2015 5:47 PM

CSX Robert

2. Use additional accessory decoders programmed to the same addresses aas your switch decoders and have them setup to control the indicators.

 
 With 10 turnouts, an NCE Switch-8 and a Switch-It would give exactly 10 outputs. A 2-lead bicolor LED and a resistor (pretty sure the output of these is less than 12 volts, so a 1L resistor is probably too big. 680 ohms might be good) connected to each output (where the instructions say to connect the Tortoise switch motor) and programming them to use the same addresses as the LS150's would create indicators that could be mounted wherever - Bob's (farrellaa) switch stand lanterns is a good option.
   
 The LS150 should be able to drive a snap relay as well as the switch machine, that will require a power supply, LEDs, and resistors to wire up indications. Also pretty simple.
 
                         --Randy

Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Monday, August 17, 2015 2:13 PM

Old fashioned control requires lots of wires, not so much so on a small layout, but on a layout with say 50 turnouts, we are talking a minimum of 50 wires to and from the controller. Many more if you stick with the sick DPDT method of operation instead of the much simpler SPDT method, which will also control signals, panel indication and auxiliary relays for track logic.

Then if you add proper interlocking signals, you require extra levers and wires for the signals.

Then if you add proper automatic block signals we are talking a huge number of detectors, relays, signals, and miles of wire.

Suffice it to say that the LION has perhaps 1000 different wires to and from his control boards and panels.

YES, DCC would make all of that wiring go away, but going with it is the prototypical operation of the interlocking tower. LION models a railroad, not a train. Him does not operate trains, him operates a RAILROAD, from the tower, alighinging switches and displaying signals. Trains are automated and are operated by LPPs.

I wish the LION knew more about interlocking before him builded the layou, him could hav designed better towers. LION will write an article about a six track terminal and the 15 levers used to operate the terminal. Cannot do that in DCC.

 

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Posted by Texas Zepher on Monday, August 17, 2015 1:50 PM

I just looked over the manual for the LS 150, and unfortunately I have to agree with the prior poster.   Given this stationary DCC control unit, and these types of turnouts, I am unable to think of any way to add indicator lights without adding additional circuitry. 

Either duplication of the stationary decoder (this time a different style that either has indicator outputs or continuous output for stall type motors), or a latch type circuit for each turnout motor.

Sometimes it is hard to beat an old fashion control panel.  This is one reason I do not use DCC for turnout control on my layouts.

 

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Posted by CSX Robert on Monday, August 17, 2015 10:42 AM

I can think of two options right off hand:

 

1. Use Atlas snap relays (or some other electrically similar latching relay).  Wire their control in parallel with the turnout motors and let them control your indicators.

 

2. Use additional accessory decoders programmed to the same addresses aas your switch decoders and have them setup to control the indicators.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Monday, August 17, 2015 4:45 AM

YAR... in years of yore, the towerman knew the alignement of the plant by the position of the levers. Lever in normal position = switch or signal or other device in its normal position. This presumes one understands what normal is.

LION builded a representation of a GRS model 5 interlocking machine, most modelers do not go this far. A row ot toggle switches should suffice. Toggle down = turnout normal. Toggle up = turnout reversed.

EWE, silly beast that you are, are using snap switches with momentary contact devices. Whorst yet, ewe are using digital stuff the sort of which the LION has no understanding nor tollerance. What him know about digital trains? A room full of Windows Servers, yes him can handle that, but DCC... not on my layout!

LION has design for a hand made toggle switch that impulses momentary contact to the turnout while remaqining in the set position. When LION returns to North Dakotalater this week, him will post the plans thereof, but now him is in Pennsyvaina using a laptop 'puter with not my stuff on it. Stuff is on said server. But all bets are off if you use digital stuff on turnouts. Dumb Idea anyway. Simple wiring, dumb operation.

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

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Turnout Indicators
Posted by DaveM on Sunday, August 16, 2015 7:12 AM

I am running a small N scale layout using a NCE Power Cab.  It is a double oval with 4 spurs (one of which divides into 3 subspurs).  I have 10 Atlas snap turnouts which I control via 2 Lenz LS 150's.  I would like to be able to visually know the direction of each turnout, either via a surface indicator or via a control panel.  But I am not sure how to hook up any light indicators or what.  All suggestions would be appreciated keeping in mind that I am in no way an electronic wizzard and the cost of the layout has already surpassed the federal budget.  Thanks so much, ThinDave

 

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