And in typical Harpo1 fashion just posting nonsense information that makes no sense.
I can program any CV in my Loksound decoders on the main. Lags behind MRC? Now that is a real laugh! Those 3 CVs for BEMF? WHy, Loksound has them - but you rarely need to touch them because they have the automatic adjustment feature.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
CNR378You realize you're replying to a 4 year old thread? Add Quote to your
And the OP who hasn't posted in a year, never reported back if anything helped.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Harpo1meTsumani can and does match the motor control easily.What they are both distal with adjustments for motor voltage at a pulse with .Same thing .All depends on the quality of the motor and drive mechanism variables. Tsumani has more amps and adjustments for advanced users.ESU has much less and is base is set up better out of the box .That is it.It lacks way behind Soundtraxx in that only a few cv's can be adjusted on the mainline programming that even lags behind MRC. So sticking with Tsumani and learning programming will give a better decoder and power fidelity in the sound itseLF. ESU;s only upside to Tsumani is that it is upgrade-able.Meaning it can be re flashed with updates.
Doughless,
Yes, we're on the same page with that
I just wanted to note it again for those perplexed because of the missing CV 5 and CV6. You solution is easy to implement.
Re CV2, it doesn't directly say that adjusting it adjusts the speed tables (BTW, there are 14, not the approximately 10 I mentioned earlier), but the user guide notes each digit CV2 is increased is roughly a 0.5% increase in available voltage. That may seem like it nudges the speed table up, but I'm not sure that's technically the case.
The DDE (what Soundtraxx calls its implementation of PID in the Tsunami) can be very sensitive to the settings and the loco's performance. The following set of instructions are those I've compiled on this from three different knowlegdeable folks, start's with Steve Hatch's and it was developed specifically for the Blackstone C-19. It also works well in the K-27s and with steam Tsunami's in various other Rio Grande locos. I have no experience with diesel sound implementation.
Tsunami PID/BEMF CV Tuning Concepts
I spent quite some time on the phone with Soundtraxx today. The following is a write up of what I was told. It includes knowledge I have gained recently in researching the PID process in general and the Tsunami decoders in particular. A PID controller is a well-known method of doing "process control". In our case the "process" is the speed of our Tsunami equipped locomotives. And the task we are working towards is producing a process/procedure that will allow the user to find/discover the best/correct settings for their particular locomotive that will give them the performance they want.
It is also important to understand that the values for a particular locomotive – make and model and scale – may not work for other locomotive … and may not even work for a ‘sister’ locomotive (one that was produced in the same run of the same make and model). And when we are talking about this kind of thing there is an assumption that the decoders are also the same make and model. Yes, certainly if you have two sister locos and you have one of them running the way you like it then you should try the same settings (CVs) for this new one … and at least use them as a starting point. But don’t be surprised if you find you have to change one or more CV values – nor even if the settings for one are significantly different from those that ‘work’ in the other one.
One of the most important aspects of a PID controller is the idea that it is not expected to achieve the "perfect" value on the first pass. It is an iterative process and will reach the targer (in our case target speed) after several successive corrections. And, precisely due to this iterative nature – the formula that is a PID controller uses the history of the past corrections … in addition to the current measurements (in our case the BEMF value that is read during the "off" segments of the PWM. The idea is to "home in" on the correct value for the PWM – and then to keep adjusting the PWM in very tiny adjustments … all with the goal of having the motor turn at a constant RPM for a given speed setting. And also with the goal of changing from any current speed step to a new speed step … smoothly (a nice steady increase or decrease in speed that results in the operator seeing his train moving in a manner that approximates what happens on a real train.
CV 209 is the Kp in the PID. It should usually be a low number (25 and below). Kp is the ‘current error’ value. Think of it as the ‘base value’ (size) of the error (difference between the target and the actual). But the value of CV209 is a range from 1 to 255 – so what CV 209 really represents is a "percentage" of the Kp that will be used.
CV 210 is the Ki in the PID. It should usually be a low number – and it will usually be a lower number than 209. Ki is the integral error value – that is to say that it is the sum of the past few changes (corrections). Think of it as an ‘adjustment’ to the Kp – based upon what has happened the past few times the PID value has been computed. Again the value of CV210 is not the actual value of the Ki but rather it is the percentage of the computed Ki that will be used to form the actual correction (final PID output calculation) to the PWM.
There is a "D" in the Tsunami PID controller. It is not "externalized" and Soundtraxx does not think that we, the users, should be messing with the "D" in the PID formula. The Kd in the PID calculation represents the rate of change, over time, of the PID calculation. Think of it as the slope of the curve of the error. The value for the "D" works the same way as the values for 209 and 210 … it is also a range/percent.
Turn off all momentum (CVs 3 and 4) before starting. It is probably even a good idea to just do a decoder reset.
It is highly unlikely that you will be successful in tuning the motor performance CVs correctly – if the locomotive wheels or the test track are not clean. Always start all such procedures with cleaning the wheels and track!
Use 128 speed step mode for all tuning (and running?). It is very hard for the PID controller to do its job – to provide smooth changes of speed and relatively constant RPM when the speed isn’t changing – if you only provide it with 28 steps (because each individual value represents a much larger percentage of the range of the throttle (think PWM).
CV 212 is the "intensity" of the PID calculation that will be used. Think of the PID calculation as a number. That number is actually a ‘correction’ for an error (the result of the PID calculation). If the value of 212 is 255 then 100% of that correction will be used. If the value of 212 is 128 then 50% of the correction will be used. An example will help. Let’s say that the target speed is 100, the current speed is 90. So the "error" is –10. And the PID calculation (for simplicity of this example of how 212 works) is +10. Sooooo, if 212 has a value of 128 then the PID correction, this time around, would be +5. As the value of 212 is reduced the number of iterations of the PID correction process that are required to reach a given target from a given start/error point will take longer and longer. Truly low values of 212 can produce a loco that is very ‘sluggish’ in terms of throttle response.
CV 213 is the specification of how often a BEMF measurement is taken. It is a frequency in a number of milliseconds – if the value in 213 is 23 then it takes a measurement every 23 milliseconds. Let’s use an example from real life … this is "how often does the nurse take your temperature?".
CV 214 is the duration of the BEMF ‘window’ (it is NOT the "D" in PID). It is how long the window is open. This is the "how long does the nurse leave the thermometer under your tongue?".
If you set the BEMF cut off level (CV 10) to a small value then the PID controller will be ‘in use’ over less of the entire speed range. This is, in general, a good thing. Values between 20 and 40 are recommended.
What does "starts moving" mean? Many of the tuning procedures ask you to do something until the locomotive start to move. There are 3 kinds of ‘movement’. There is the first little bit of movement – it may even be a little lurch – but the loco does not move continuously and will spend more time stopped than moving. The second phase is where the loco is moving but it may not be at a steady rate and it may not be "smooth". This is not "tie crawling" speed. The third phase is where the loco is definitely moving and is well above "tie crawling". You would still call it ‘slow’ but you wouldn’t call it very slow. For most PID tuning procedures when it says "until it starts moving" we are talking about the 2nd phase.
Locomotives should be tuned "light" (no train cars behind them). You need to know that the loco will perform well on its own. A loco with a train behind it may require more throttle in order to move at the same speed as it does light – and that’s a good thing and is a better simulation of an actual locomotive (and will sound better).
This is all I’m going to write up at this time. I intend to use this information in order to develop a procedure (or small set of procedures) that will allow you to find the best settings for the motor performance CVs - 209, 210, 212, 213, and 214 primarily … but also the BEMF cutoff, the momentum, and the trim CVs.
- Jim Betz (14 June 2010)"
Note that all 3 experts do things somewhat differently. It's a complex process and not just adjust a few settings and go. Unlike the rest of DCC decoder setting, sound is very subjective. If you don't like what you get, try something else. If it sounds good, make note of your settings or record them via DecoderPro. That way if there's ever a reset, you can get things back to sounding good with minimal effort.
Also note that slow speed control is part of this process. I suppose you could hone in on only that by parsing it out of the rest of these instructions if you want, but considering it is a sound decoder, might as well deal with both sound and smoothing starting.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehman cacole Tsunami decoders do NOT support CVs 5 and 6, max voltage and mid voltage. To adjust them, you have to revert to using a speed table. Yep, and that's where DecoderPro really shines. The speed table interface is a nicely illustrated, graphical presentation of the various settings in one easy to adjust graph that is functional and easy to interpret. Lacking DecoderPro, there are some factory speed tables that are easy to choose and implement that can give you control over the midrange and upper limits. Just check you docs for the Tsunami, IIRC a range of 10 different ones that will get you something going right away other than the default.
cacole Tsunami decoders do NOT support CVs 5 and 6, max voltage and mid voltage. To adjust them, you have to revert to using a speed table.
Tsunami decoders do NOT support CVs 5 and 6, max voltage and mid voltage. To adjust them, you have to revert to using a speed table.
Yep, and that's where DecoderPro really shines. The speed table interface is a nicely illustrated, graphical presentation of the various settings in one easy to adjust graph that is functional and easy to interpret.
Lacking DecoderPro, there are some factory speed tables that are easy to choose and implement that can give you control over the midrange and upper limits. Just check you docs for the Tsunami, IIRC a range of 10 different ones that will get you something going right away other than the default.
Mike, check out my post above..er..page 1. That's what I'm talking about enabling with a few simple commands. Adjusting CV2 ..I believe...tends to also force the mid range speeds to adjust to the speed curve as you move along the scale, in addition to changing starting speed.
I've tried to mess with PIDs, but frankly, could never get it to perform much differently than anything one of the preset curves couldn't offer combined with CV2 adjustment...but that may be my error.
Some responses are talking about momentum as it relates to linking sound with speed changes, but I didn't see where the OP was concerned about that at this point, just reducing the out of the box Tsunami starting speed I think was his major issue.
- Douglas
Lacking DecoderPro (which is easy to get, set-up and use once you figure out which means of interfacing with your DCC is best in terms of hardware), there are some factory speed tables that are easy to choose and implement that can give you control over the midrange and upper limits. Just check you docs for the Tsunami, IIRC a range of 10 different ones that will get you something going right away other than the default.
So there's no real need for CVs 5 and 6, intended to use a speed table from the get-go I suspect (based on what's been said about devoting as much memory as possible to support sound, a big deal at the time this now rather aged design was first released). It's not something you really end up missing except for expecting them to offer that shortcut to a quick and dirty speed table and then it's not there. That's really all 5 and 6 are. I like having them, but they're the functional equivalent of a shortcut you have on your desktop on your computer. Even if they disappear, you can still accomplish what they could have done, just have to know where that functionality is present elsewhere in the system.
I also suspect that some of the chatter you hear about the Tsunami being up to snuff or not is that Soundtraxx is working with a very old design at this point in terms of the market. It was revolutionary in its day, but that was like 1998/2000? First heard them at a Narrow Gauge Convention and I thought, well, pretty cool, but can I ever afford one and when will it be available and how big? Then came Blackstone and made it all so easy. And then I even learned how to do my own installs (thanks to a very good list buddy, Laurie McLean, who does videos on Youtube on soldering, electrinicking, souns, and animation mostly HOn3, but more and more On3, just moved and a new layout is coming along soon..I hear on the grapevine). There's a lot of competition in sound now and new technology. Things don't stand still. The Tsunami is still a darn good decoder and will satisfy you if you know how to get what you want out of it. Check out CVs 209, 210, 212, 217, dial in your sound and it ain't bad. Narrowgaugers can be pretty picky about things. I'm not, I run diesels But you just don't see anything but experimenation with installing other decoders in place of Tsunami's that come installed on Blackstone items.
Then I got DecoderPro from JMRI and it's a whole new learning curve, but pretty much really easy as far as doing things like setting up locos and you can use as much or as little as you like and requires only minimal resources from any recent PC/laptop system.
I also suspect a lot of folks never figure out the whizbang stuff the PID does because there are all the different interactions possible. Get one of the various CV "recipes" floating around to start with and give it a try. Some call it PID and others DDE. It's assoicated with using BEMF It'll send chills down your spine the first time you get it all in synch and the little thing really sounds like its digging in when it hits the grades. it's very load dependent, so if you want to hear stack talk, then this is where to find it.
But there are lots of cool things from the other kids now. Everyone has their own tastes in decoders for s lot of reasons, not all that share the same priority in what they want. Look for what works well for you.
There are so many CVs you can set on a Tsunami, that it's very easy to put the wrong number in the wrong CV. If possible, look into downloading JMRI Decoder Pro - it makes it a lot easier.
Short term: do the factory reset. Leave CV 2-3-4-5-6 at zero and see how it runs. Then set the acceleration / deceleration CVs (3 and 4) at say 10 or 15 and see how it runs. Then if that's OK, set CV 5 (top speed) at around 120, that will roughly cut speed in half.
markie97 I did follow instructions for adjusting the feedback loop (PID Loop) in my 2-10-0 and got, what I considered very good performance. I used JMRI software to do it, which made things easier. Its been awhile and I do not remember exactly where I found the instructions but I do remember you adjusted one parameter at a time. A little tedious but not that difficult.
I did follow instructions for adjusting the feedback loop (PID Loop) in my 2-10-0 and got, what I considered very good performance. I used JMRI software to do it, which made things easier. Its been awhile and I do not remember exactly where I found the instructions but I do remember you adjusted one parameter at a time. A little tedious but not that difficult.
Yep, just like Don, Ricky, and myself note, there's nothing "wrong" with a Tsunami in terms of slow speed operation. It does take some fiddling when adjusting the PID whatchamacallit, because it's a sensitive enough process that slight differences in drivetrain performance mean the exact same settings in different units may not provide the exact same results (it often will, just not always).
In any case, the simplest, least expensive answer to the OP's question is to simply get the Tsunami properly programmed. It'll do exactly what he wants, assuming proper CV settings, which he indicated were certainly way out of bounds and at least part of his problem by being improperly programmed.
RR BaronRemoving the jerk for smoother movement is addressed in the video...
He's wrong, adding momentum will not reduce the jerking.
davidmbedard...I don't settle for good enough when better is available for cheaper...
Even if a Loksound is cheaper than a Tsunamis off the shelf, it's certainly not cheaper if you are replacing a factory installed Tsunamis with a Loksound.
All my Tsunami equipped units (both of them), while not "one minute per tie crawl" slow, are smooth on speed step 1, no "jump start" and smooth when coupling.
I adjusted start voltage, then added in momentum. (And my accel and decel rates are all 25 or less on any model, most, including my 2 tsunami's, are 10-15 range.)
Operator style makes a difference. Spin the throttle fast, you get fast accel/decel rates, no matter what the setting in the cv is. Do one click on the encoder at a time, slowly, and it will slowly accel/decel at the set rate. Smaller layout means I rarely go above a 45/100 on the throttle anyway... Which, on my QSI, equals 25 sMPH. (After programming, I tested the QSI, full speed was 62 sMPH. Not bad for a road freight unit.) All my units are programmed to closely match this unit, including my Loksound units.
I do not get that much control difference in them when I operate, whether it's a QSI, Tsunami, Loksound, or a Digitrax non-sound decoder. What makes a difference is programming, and the units drive-train. If I put a Loksound in an old BB unit, it's not any smoother than a BB unit with a Digitrax DH126... No matter what I program it at. Likewise, Bowser units with Loksound are smooth, but just as smooth with any other decoder.
(And, as proof, I consist a Tsunami equipped C-425 with my 2 Loksound equipped C-430 units, no struggling after I programmed them. 425 is a Atlas master unit, aftermarket sound, 430's are Bowser, factory equipped sound.)
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
I would say do a reset. CV8 = 8, then power off then power on. Then reset the starting voltage.
And yes David, I can get my tsunami's to crawl. You just need to adjust feedback
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
davidmbedardSorry.....I don't settle for good enough when better is available for cheaper. My locos need to crawl....not jack rabbit......
The only time I get jackrabbit is operator error.
I appreciate the difference. No need to inflate it with hot air.
Besides, most of my Tsunamis are factory installed in Blackstones. Wouldn't make much sense to tear that out. I do just fine coupling, crawling, whatever. If it really was an issue, believe me, the 714s would cause stuff to be bouncing all over the place. No sense of inadequacy here, real or imagined.
Now, the $$ thing can make a difference. I might look into it, if my three brass installs were done now. But it would be a comparison between three decoders -- Tsunami, ESU, or WOW. And it's a total package I would judge, not one favored aspect. YMMV
I make sure my DCC sytem is set for 128 speed steps and I enable one of the "Preset Speed Tables" (cntrl F find function for a PDF file) found in the manual. My Sound Value Bachmann s2s and Proto factory full-feature Tsunamis all have good slow speed performance from this simple sequence of CVs.
CV8=8 reset
CV29 =18
CV25=11 (or you could try 12 thru 15)
CV2=2. If that's too slow, then CV2=3.
It may not move at an imperceptable crawl but its good enough for me...and I do a lot of switching. Keep in mind my experience is with diesels, so a 10 driver steamer may not start smoothly at that low of voltage and you may have to experiment more with CV2.
1 is just a number. How much time would you spend at 1 in operation? I have no idea, but for me it's not much.
I do realize some people feel unless they can achieve some ultimate metric, things are inadequate in life. If my goal was to make a loco move as slowly as possible without actually being stopped, then 1 would be a big deal.
On the other hand, I spend most of my time moving stuff when I'm operating. Looks good to me. I've never felt anything was inadequate about the Tsunami in the course of normal operations when adjusted with any of the several methods already noted. If I did feel the need for ESU style crawl, then the next loco up would get it. I sure wouldn't trash an otherwise functional install.
davidmbedard The diesel was quite jerky. Also....where is the loading before movement?
The diesel was quite jerky. Also....where is the loading before movement?
Removing the jerk for smoother movement is addressed in the video.
RR Baron
Of course not, as I said. But, much better than explained by OP. Before swapping a decoder, I think it is better to get the most of existing one. And according to the OP's explanation, it is obvious he did not try to set CV's mentioned in Bruce Petrarca procedure.
Hrvoje
davidmbedard Please show or provide a link to a Soundtraxx Tsunami equipped locomotive that can crawl at Speed Step 1. Thanks. David B
Please show or provide a link to a Soundtraxx Tsunami equipped locomotive that can crawl at Speed Step 1.
Thanks.
David B
Here is one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9hFJuDMSbM
Here it is:
http://www.mrdccu.com/curriculum/soundtraxx/tsunami.htm
Go down, to "I Can't Get My Loco to Run Well Slowly".
Here is a video:
Of course, Tsunami never will/can achieve what can be done with any ESU decoder (speaking of motor control).
But if someone is persistent enough and will follow the above explanation, a satisfactory result can be achieved.
Important is to understand that several CV's should be tweaked (209, 210, 212, sometimes 213 & 214, and 10).
I noticed that is is better NOT to use speed tables, meaning that in that case it is not possible to limit top speed (Tsunami does not support CV 5&6). Only if speed tables are enabled, top speed can be limited thru CV 66 and 95 ("forward and reverse trim"). But, in that case somehow "smooth" start and stop is not so good as in case speed tables are not enabled.
Regards,
I would, but I traded it to another forum member for the same loco with Loksound. I have to look through my old videos and see if I ever bothered making a video with this loco in operation. I think I did one - testing my iCar, but I didn't run super slow, I ran at slow but not crawling speed. Nice alcohol and glue bottle scenery, too. The motor drive is not THAT horrible, it's better than most non-BEMF decoders. It's just not as good as ESU. Definitely better than the Digitrax Series 3, especially with that 'jump' those had every so many speed steps. My Tsunami was in a Bowser/Stewart F unit, so it was already dealing with a very good mechanism - my main reason for swapping is because all my other sound locos are Loksound, and I prefer the sounds in the Loksound. Better motor control was just a nice extra.
Edit: Pretty sure the B unit is the Tsunami one, not the non-powered one I made with an old DSD and a very large speaker. Also not that other thant he locos and the caboose, every car in this train is actually a bad ordered car, with broken grabs or some other defect, I just wanted to run something other than a caboose hop to test the iCar. The A unit is non-sound, TCS T1. I do not run wheel grinders, so it's not like the Tsunami was spinning trying to push the other.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lfci_aDTnYk
John,
Yeah but the ONE Tsunami I had didn't jump to warp speed on step 1. It started slowly - just not as slowly as the same brand loco with a Loksound. There's definitely a programming error here. I'd just do a reset and test run it on address 3 and see what it does, and then start adjusting again.
I don't believe 225 is even a valid value for CVs 4 and 5 to set momentum. Setting should probably be no higher than 10. In fooling around with the CVs you may have inadvertently set mid voltage to a high value instead of what should be about half the top voltage setting. Try resetting CV6 to a value of 100. But first, check the documentation that came with your decoder, because previous versions of the Tsunami decoder did not support CVs 5 and 6, and I don't think it does now, either.
You may need to perform a decoder reset and start over.
225 is a way high number for acc and dec momentum settings. I typically use between 6 and 40. My NCE Powerpro manual suggests 10 will yield 8.9 seconds to get to set speed.
I haven't looked to see what Soundtraxx indicates, but you might try a much lower setting or even zero to see what happens then. If OK, then try adding in momentum until you see what you'd like. 225 could take all afternoon to get to speed or may be so high a setting it's causing the lurches in some weird way.
Keep in mind there is the theoretical adjustment range from 0 to 255 available in many CVs, but the practical range may be much shorter. Take whistle selection. You may get 4 to 6 to select from, but any value entered that is more than the number of selections defaults back to 0 with the Tsunami IIRC. With other CVs, you can enter strange values beyond the recommended ones (assuming that is the case, which it may not be here), but this may result in very odd performance at times.