Hi everyone!
I like to work with small HO diesel locomotives. Recently I have been working on two Grandt Line switchers. One is a 25 tonner and the other is a box cab. My goal was to compare the performance of one locomotive equipped with a traditional flywheel with another equipped with a Loksound Power Pack keep alive circuit.
I posted the video of the flywheel equipped 25 tonner here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwZqS7C_g20
I am using an NCE PowerCab system.
Tonight I was finally able to run the box cab with the Loksound Power Pack keep alive circiut. I'll show a video soon, but all the video will confirm is that the keep alive circuit allows the locomotive to run incredibly smoothly with no hesitation. So far, I have only tested them on straight track.
However I have encountered a problem that needs to be resolved before I can make further tests. The Power Pack keep alive circuit seems to be causing a bit of strange performance in the locomotive.
When I select speed step 1 the locomotive jerks forward and runs at a speed much higher than it should. Same thing on steps 2 and 3. However, when I select speed step 4 the locomotive slows down to a crawl.
If I start the locomotive from a complete stop by selecting the 'Incr Fast' button (which starts at speed step 10) the locomotive moves off very slowly and accelerates to a speed which is less than what it was running when I selected speed step 1. I can then slow the locomotive down to a crawl by pushing the 'Dec' button. However, when I get down to speed step 3 the locomotive suddenly accelerates again.
I'm guessing that I have missed something re the CV settings required when installing a keep alive. Does anyone have any suggestions? What have I missed?
Thanks as always.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Are you using speed tables?
Ya, my guess would be you're using a speed table and accidently have the first step set to a really high number. That's a nice thing about Decoder Pro, you can see the speed table graph and easily spot a problem. When I first got Decoder Pro, I found I had done something like that, only the other way around...one step about midway thru the speed table was set to almost zero. Correcting that made things run better!
wjstixYa, my guess would be you're using a speed table and accidently have the first step set to a really high number.
Well,yes and no. I'm pretty sure that with Loksound decoders speed table speed steps 1 and 28 are set by the values that are determined by CV 2 and CV 5, and then the intermediate points are manually input in the speed table. So if CV 2 is set too high, the starting speed would appear to be fast, and then the speed set by the CV for speed step 2 would act to slow down the unit before speeding up again.
But then all this pre-supposes that he has the speed table enabled.
davidmbedarddid you do a bemf calibration
I didn't know that there was any BEMF calibration with a Loksound Select. At least I don't remember reading that in the Select manual. I guess I'll have to read through again.
Thank you David!
Problem solved.
I'll post a video soon.
I am finally able to run the two switchers side by side. The box cab isn't finished yet but that has no effect on the test results.
Both switchers weigh the same, and both have identical BullAnt drives from Hollywood Foundry, except the CP switcher has a flywheel as supplied by Hollywood Foundry whereas the box cab has a Loksound Power Pack keep alive instead of the flywheel. The flywheel and the Power Pack both take up about the same amount of space. The BullAnts have a 60:1 drive ratio.
The locomotives are being tested on Atlas Code 100 NS track with a Peco curved turnout. The turnout has not been tuned up. Its straight out of the box. The track and wheels were cleaned with alcohol before the test. I am using an NCE Power Cab. I am using 128 speed steps.
The results are stunning to say the least.
The CP 25 tonner runs more or less steadily at speed step 40 but there are interruptions in the sound when slowed down to speed step 20 and it stalls a couple of times. Below speed step 20 it was hopeless. It stalled constantly. I stopped recording because it was so bad. If you want to see it, please ask and I will do another video.
The box cab on the other hand suffered no interruptions in sound even down to speed step 1. It crawled over the frog even though one of the wheels dropped noticeably into the gap between the rails. It runs so slow its like watching paint dry!
Here is the CP 25 tonner:
Here is the box cab:
It is interesting that Geoff Baxter from Hollywood Foundry was concerned that the BullAnt would not perform very well without a flywheel. I'll send him a note.
The next step will be to see if I can get the CP 25 tonner apart to replace the flywheel with a Power Pack.
Hi David.
I'm not sure what the issue was. All I know is that when I did the BEMF thing with CV 54 the problem was solved.
I'll have to look up CV 116 to see what I should do with it. Any suggestions?
EDIT: The Loksound Select manual does not refer to CV 116 directly in the index of CVs. Since the locomotive is running very nicely I don't see the need to play with CV 116, unless you suggest otherwise. I haven't got the patience to re-read the whole manual right now.
I also checked the CV listings for V4.0 and I couldn't find any direct reference to CV 116 there either.
I, too, have been through the LokSound Select User Manual several times, and can find no reference to CV 116.
The boxcab practically falls into the frog of that turnout. Does it have finescale wheels or something?
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
116 is not a user-defined CV in Loksound decoders .... it is in Tsunami decoders though.
I had the same wheel drop problem with some of my turnouts. I added a plastic shim to the bottom of the frog, just thick enought for the flange to contact it. So when the wheel tread lost contact in the gap, the flange took over and kept things level.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
CV113 sets the amount of time the Keep Alive module last. With a range of 0 to 255, the factory default is set to 50. Set it to 255 if you want the longest run time from your stay alive module.
It's the TCS decoders that need to have a CV set to enable / disable the use of a stay alive module, not Loksound.
Hi Randy:
The box cab has 33" code 110 NS wheels.
I don't like the way it behaves over the frog but I deliberately chose a turnout with a large frog to see how it affected the locomotive. Despite the uneven rolling I think it proves absolutely that the Power Pack works wonders. When the box cab drops into the gap two of the four wheels are without power (the opposite rear wheel is lifted off of the track). It climbs back out of the hole every time. The other critter with the flywheel only stalled every time across the frog at anything below speed step 20 of 128. I was very pleasantly suprised with the slow speed performance with the Power Pack. In fact, it is almost too slow to be useful.
As I said, I haven't done any tuning of the turnout so one aspect of that will be to shim the bottom of the gap at the frog as Mark suggested.
I'm going to leave the decoder at the factory settings as far as the Power Pack is concerned. They seem to work well.
Check the wheel gauge on the loco, too. Every loco that I had that bounced of Atlas #6 turnouts was proven to have wheels out of gauge when checked with an NMRA gauge. Adjusted the ones that needed it, they then were smooth even at low speeds.
I checked the wheel gauge on both critters and they are spot on.
However, I discovered a wee discrepancy between the two locomotives. The CP unit does have code 110 - 33" wheels, but the box cab has code 88 - 33" wheels. The mistake was mine when I ordered the second BullAnt. I had intended to order code 110 but obviously I checked the wrong box. Duh!
Rather than messing with 40+ turnouts I will give Geoff at Hollywood Foundry a call to order a set of code 110 wheels.
The amount of time the keep alive will last is also dependant on the current load. An engine running with sound on and half a dozen lights will last no where near as long as a non-sound engine with no lights ....
Geoff Baxter from Hollywood Foundry is being his usual generous self. He has offered to send me two 33" code 110 wheel sets if I pay postage only. I'm a bit strange when it comes to these sorts of situations. I believe in paying for my own mistakes, so I have asked Geoff to bill me for the parts anyhow.
EDIT: Geoff insisted on supplying the replacement parts for free. Nice guy!
Yesterday I took the CP 25 tonner apart to exchange the flywheel for a Loksound Power Pack. The disassembly was a bit of a disaster because in my usual ham fisted fashion I had used waaaayyyy too much CA to keep the various bits in place. In the process of prying things apart I managed to break the cab windows on both sides. I also completely ruined the wiring so I have had to replace all of the wires on the decoder and I have to redo the rear light. Of course the paint job has suffered as have the hand rails. Fortunately the hand rails seem to be very forgiving, and the paint damage is in spots where it will be easy to touch up.
Lesson learned! Use less glue! NO, I'll correct that - use a whole lot less glue!!
My excuse of course is that I didn't anticipate having to take the thing apart. However once I found out how much better the Power Pack keep alive worked vs the flywheel I was doomed to have to deal with the darned glue.
Oh well. The CP 25 tonner will be back on the tracks in a week or so. Hopefully it will still look good and it will run a lot better.
Just for all you DCC enthusiasts, here is the 25 tonner before it gets its hair cut!
You can see the damage I did to the window frames when I was removing the components in order to install the keep alive.
I have also encountered another problem. The Loksound Power Pack keep alive actually requires a fair bit more space than the flywheel did. I have had to remove a lot of the weights to allow the keep alive to fit into the cab. Putting weight back in will be an interesting exercise. I have decided to go with one iPhone5 speaker instead of the two that were used in the first installation so that will solve part of the problem, but I think I will have to squeeze the bits of lead sheet that use to add weight into every available space.
You had TWO speakers in there? I know they're small speakers but still...
I may have to revise my "you can put DCC in anything" to "you can put DCC and sound in anything"
As much as I like Loksound decoders, I really didn't care for their Power Pack module. I installed two of them in two different cases and was not impressed with how little "stay alive" power they had (and yes, I had the CV maxed out).
One was a non-sound installation with a LokPilot decoder and it would last just a couple seconds with motor running and lights on. The second installation with a Loksound decoder would only last maybe one second at best with the motor running, lights and sound on. The TCS KA2 worked much better.
What are the results of YOUR installation ?
Hi Mark:
I don't have a layout yet, so that limits the amount of testing that I can do. All I have been able to do so far is run the box cab back and forth over two pieces of flex track with a Peco Code 100 curved turnout in between. I ran the boxcab many times and it did not stall once. You can see in the video in my previous post that the critter nearly falls over when the code 88 wheels settle into the gap at the frog. Even at speed step 1 (of 128) it ran consistently back and forth every time.
I haven't adjusted CV 113 from the factory setting of 50, which according to the Power Pack manual will give about .8 sec of reserve power. However, this is an extremely small engine with very low power requirements so, as you suggested, the Power Pack is likely lasting much longer than it would on a larger engine. I'm not surprised to hear that your experience is not as satisfactory since I suspect you were running larger engines.
My conclusions so far are that for the purpose of achieving consistant operation with very small locomotives, the Power Pack seems to fill the bill quite nicely. Up until now, in order to get my critters to run smoothly, I had to clean the wheels and the track every time I wanted to run them. The Power Pack is also a lot smaller than the TCS keep alives which would have been impossible to fit into the box cab along with a decoder and speaker.
I think the bottom line is that keep alive circuits are definately worth the investment. Whether the Loksound Power Pack is the best unit depends on the application. Logic suggests that it you have the space for a larger keep alive then you would use a larger unit.
Here's the wee guy with his hair cut:
I have managed to more or less re-install the broken window frames. Hopefully with a bit of touch up the cracks won't show too badly.
There is still room for a bit more weight. The more the better!
Yes, there were two speakers in the 25 tonner when I first built it. With all the components installed there was a large enough space in the top of the cab for two iPhone 5 speakers.
However, after replacing the flywheel with the Loksound Power Pack there was a lot less space for weight so I have gone down to one speaker only. I'm still having a bit of trouble getting the thing back up to the original 3.0 oz.
Thanks for your interest.
Well, to explain the above tirade, I have to start by admitting I broke my own rule.
I have given the sage advice in the past to ALWAYS install the resistors when attaching the wiring to LEDs.
I forgot!
I was rewarded with the little "pop-fizz" sound and a bright flash when I turned the headlight on. I was not a happy camper to say the least!
To fix my oversight I had to tear all the guts out of the 25 tonner, replace all of the leads on the decoder (for the second time) and wire up two new LEDs WITH RESISTORS (yes - I'm yelling!). That's as far as I have gotten tonight. What a waste of time. I hope the decoder survived my clumsey soldering.
Words of condolence would be greatly appreciated, or ROTFLYAO if you wish.
Been there, done that, as they say. I can understand your frustration, especially after being so close to finishing the model. In these situations, I tend to put the thing aside for a few days and work on another project. Something tells me you're not that type of guy... Looking forward to future updates.
Simon
Hi Simon;
Actually I have decided to slow down a bit and put the project aside for a couple of days. I think I made the mistake because I was working too quickly. I was congratulating myself on how well the job was going instead of pausing now and then to think about what I was doing. As they say "haste makes waste".