This is the suggested reversing section. The two sets of gaps are indicated by the solid blue circles. No other gaps are required to isolate this reversing section.
Rich
Alton Junction
maxman richhotrain maxman, it is not clear to me from your comment if you are objecting to my inclusion of all 7 set of gaps in that most recent track diagram. No, I wasn't objecting to anything. I was just confused. I thought that you were changing your opinion as to what should be included in the loop.
richhotrain maxman, it is not clear to me from your comment if you are objecting to my inclusion of all 7 set of gaps in that most recent track diagram.
No, I wasn't objecting to anything. I was just confused. I thought that you were changing your opinion as to what should be included in the loop.
richhotrainmaxman, it is not clear to me from your comment if you are objecting to my inclusion of all 7 set of gaps in that most recent track diagram.
No, I wasn't objecting to anything. I was just confused. I thought that you were changing your opinion as to what should be included in the loop. Just information overload on my end.
What Rich highlighted is what would have had to have been the reverse section for this to have ever worked, however you can see on that diagram that it is very possible for one train to be trying to cross Switch 4 intot hose two spurs, AND another train coming out of the yard at the top and entering the reverse section at the same time, and if the non-reverse section wiring was completely consistent, this would be trying to adjust two reversed phases simultaneously. As I said, shortening the reverse section to simplify things makes this prettyy much impossible unless you set two trains on a collision course to meet in the middle of the reverse section head-on.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
maxman richhotrain I took another look at your track diagram this morning.
richhotrain I took another look at your track diagram this morning.
Randy and I, and I am sure others, continue to feel that only two sets of gaps are necessary, one set on the tail end of Switch 8 and one set on the divergent end of Switch 4, as illiustrated in my first posted revision of trainwrek's track diagram.
richhotrainI took another look at your track diagram this morning.
I'm not sure I see the benefit of including any of the track/turnouts to the right of switch 8 in the return loop section. Same question regarding including switch 3 (and 4?) in the return section I think you and Randy were correct with your original gap locations.
I took another look at your track diagram this morning. If I read it correctly, you have gaps on the divergent ends of seven turnouts, 1, 2, 3, 8, 9, 10, and 11.
Disregarding the gaps on 1 and 2 which are not necessary, the other five pairs of gaps isolate a section of track indicated by the red line in the following diagram which I will refer to as the "reversing section".
In this arrangement, if a train passes straight through Switch 3 in either direction, there will be no problem since the straight through route is part of the mainline. If a train passes through the divergent side of Switch 3, the loco will encounter reverse polarity (at least in one direction), triggering the AR-1.
Now, if a train passes through the connection between Switch 6 and Switch 8, it is either entering or exiting the reversing section, depending upon its direction, triggering the AR-1 when reverse polarity is encountered.
What your track diagram doesn't show is your wiring protocol. From the diagram, we have no idea where the various feeders are connected to the tracks and to the busses. In any event, I would strongly recommend that you remove all of the unnecessary gaps, as suggested in my earlier reply and disconnect all of the feeders except one pair to the main layout (the non-reversing section) and one pair to the reversing section.
trainwrek, I'm not sure that you have proved much, if anything.
For one thing, once you disconnected all of the feeders on your layout and then connected one pair of feeders to the main section and one pair of feeders to the reversing section and it failed, you could have stopped right there.
For another thing, testing that way has not eliminated gapping as a problem, the sub-bus as a problem, or mis-wired feeders as a problem.
You are presuming too much in that you are convinced that the gaps are properly placed, that the feeders are wired correctly, that the sub-bus is wired correctly, and that the AR-1 is operating correctly.
Here is what I would do if I stopped by to test your layout for faults.
1. I would remove all of the gaps as you currently have them and simply install two sets of gaps as I diagrammed earlier. That would completely isolate a simple reversing section with no turnouts to screw things up.
2. I would ignore the sub-bus and connect one pair of feeders from the main bus to a connection on a section of track on the main layout (non-reversing section).
3. I would connect one pair of feeders from the main bus to the input side of the AR-1.
4. I would connect one pair of feeders from track inside the reversing section to the output side of the AR-1.
5. I would run a loco into the reversing section and see if it works. Then, continue on and exit the reversing section and see if it works. If all is well, then I would turn the loco around and enter the reversing section from the other end and see if it works. Then continue and exit the reversing section and see if it works.
The idea here is simplicity. Only two set of gaps are needed. Only two pairs of feeders are needed, one pair to the main section and one pair to the reversing section.
Do that and then report back.
For it to have worked before, all of Div 3, 4, and 5 need to be powered from the autoreverser. Or at least Switch 4, the entire section that loops around across the main and to the back, switch 8, switch 10, switch 9, the entire straight section between switch 8 and switch 9, and the tail to the right of switch 9. However, that approach opens up the possibility of two trains trying to enter/exit the loop at the same time - one proceeding from switch 4 to switch 5, and one proceeding from switch 10 to switch 11, or one going 8-6 or 9-7. With what we've suggested, the only way you'd have two trains entering the loop at the same time is if they were about to crash head on into one another, or if you stopped a train halfway through, ran another loco up to the back of the train, then cut it in half and had each half pull out engine first - not very likely.
I've been troubleshooting the wiring since my last post this morning. Disconnected all track leads from both main and reverse loop, except for one lead to each, enough to get power to a loco to track through. Still the same issue. Disconnected the feeder and connected another - same issue. I did that with each feeder to both main and reverse loop. Same issue. I did find a single misplaced bus wire, which was corrected, with no change. Loco enters and exits main to the reverse loop at switch 3, both directions. When a loco hits the gap between switches 6 & 8, the PowerCab shorts out and shut down until I move the loco to one side of the gap. It doesn't matter how the AR-1 is adjusted it still shorts. I noticed how both your suggestions to move the gap (blue circle) on the rev loop would simplify things, and it makes a lots of sense. Meanwhile, since the layout was functioning "ok" with the EZ Command system, with the gaps where they currently are, prior to the wiring upgrade, and since I have now removed, and retraced every wire on the layout and verified polarity throughout, and that all bus wires are connected to the proper panel, and that the AR-1 is connected properly, and I still get a short on crossing to/from the rev loop at 6/8, I can only assume that the AR-1 is defective. Nothing else has really changed from the original functioning arrangement. I guess I need some hands on assistance from some experts like yourselves.
Trainwrek
What is not clear from your track diagram is how the sub-bus is wired and what section of the layout is considered the "main layout".
What Randy and I are suggesting is that the entire layout, including the yards and the spurs, is the main layout except for the track between the tail side of Switch 8 and the divergent side of Switch 4.
Furthermore, you only need a main bus. A set of feeder wires would run from the main bus to the input side of the AR-1, and any and all feeders from the reversing section would run to the output side of the AR-1.
richhotrain Sorry for the earlier confusion. The only point of reverse polarity is marked by the red circle. That connection should be gapped. Backing up the track from that point, I marked the furthest connection point with a blue circle where the other set of gaps should be, or any connection point short of that depending upon how long or short that reversing section needs to be. All of the other gaps in your diagram are unnecessary. I believe that Randy is making the same comments as me. He just types faster. Rich
Sorry for the earlier confusion.
The only point of reverse polarity is marked by the red circle. That connection should be gapped. Backing up the track from that point, I marked the furthest connection point with a blue circle where the other set of gaps should be, or any connection point short of that depending upon how long or short that reversing section needs to be. All of the other gaps in your diagram are unnecessary. I believe that Randy is making the same comments as me. He just types faster.
Nah, you deleted one before I even started posting, and you edited the picture.
The reverse loop rejoins the main at the crossover between Swith 8 and Switch 6. The portion of the layout from the right of Switch 8, that yard and runaround, can be accessed without reversing the direction of travel for the train, so it's not a reverse loop. You're making it more complicated than it needs to be by trying to include that extra track. And I believe it is failing because Kato turnouts are power routing, at least the #4 ones in HO are. The frog is isolated from the diverging frog rails so insulated joiners are not required, at least accoring to Allan Gartner's site (I've never used Kato track myself). Simplest thing (usually the best) is to add insulated joiners where Rich and I suggested, and make that looping back portion the reverse loop. The other insualted joiners can stay if you still want to be able to cut off power to sidings (can be useful even with DCC), or you cna pare things back so the only rails that have gaps are the ones between power or circuit breaker districts. But basically, every other rail except between the marked section can be powered from the main bus (just keep the correct feeder on the correct side of the track) and the loop portion between the insulated joines (moving left from Switch 8 and around to the front then back across the middle and finally around down to Switch 4) all gets powered by the output of the AR-1.
It's possible that other combinations of gaps and feeder locations will work, but this is the simplest option.
Rich and Randy, it's interesting you both seem to be saying the same thing. But I am a little perplexed. I understand what you are saying about gaps but here's the issue. Oh, btw, the extra gaps are there because the layout was originally set up for dc - cab control. The issue - if you look at the reversing loop, where it runs through switch 8 at the rear of the layout - follow it straight to the dead end spur through switch 9. That was all wired as part of the reversing loop, and isolated from all other trackage. So I'm not sure why there needs to be gaps at the point end of switch 8 and diverging end of switch 4, since the entire loop is already isolated. If I place gaps on switch 8 as mentioned, the spur extending straight out of switch 8 will have to be wired to the main bus, which will create another trip point for the AR-1. In other words it will have to trip whether a train takes the diverging route or the straight route through switch 8 (when heading west to east) on the loop. As it's currently wired it will only trip when going right from switch 8 or left through switch 10. You guys know a lot more about this stuff than I do, so what is it I'm missing about this? And if I regap and divert wiring as you suggest, will it prevent the short between switches 6/8 anf 7/9? The only rewiring I would need is to attach feeders on the tracks between switch 8 and the end of that straight spur to the main bus instead of the reverse loop bus. I hope you can make sense of what I'm saying.
OK, that one worked. You definitely need additional gaps besides those marked. The easiest option would be to insualte both rails to the left (point side) of switch 8, and the diverging side of Switch 4 (you have indicated insulated joiners on the straight leg of Switch 4). The entire section then, from the point side of Switch 8 around to the divergining side of Switch 4, is what would be powered from the AR-1. The entire rest of the layout would be powered by the main power bus.
You must have looked too quickly. Look at Div 3 - splits off from the main (Div 2) near the front of the layout, loops inside of the main loop to the rear center, then crosses back to the left front, loops around the left side to the rear then rejoins the mail at switches 6/8 and 7/9. It's at those switches where the short is occurring.
deleted
Track Diagram attached
If you want me to post the track diagram for you, let me know.
trainwrek Let me know if you don't get the Track Diagram. Thanks Ken
Let me know if you don't get the Track Diagram.
Thanks
Ken
Rich, Thanks for the feedback. I think your suggestion to remove all feeders and reconnect one at a time is the best approach. And I think we have arrived at the same conclusion - a short in a feeder wire or defective AR-1, most likely cause of the problem. I'm thinking if neither of these is the real cause, then I may have a short across the Kato #6 turnout where the problem is occurring, at the rear interchange between the reverse loop and the mainline. I've set up the Photobucket account and I will try to insert the link to the wiring diagram here. Thanks for all your help.
Ken (Trainwrek)
" alt="Track Diagram" />
trainwrekI'm back and going to start disconnecting one set of feeders at a time and checking the problem till I find where Murphy is hiding. Rich, to answer your question, I do not have any circuit breakers, solid state or otherwise, installed. Layout is so small and simple I didn't see the need for them, especially since the PowerCab has a pretty sensitive CB built in.
Rich, to answer your question, I do not have any circuit breakers, solid state or otherwise, installed. Layout is so small and simple I didn't see the need for them, especially since the PowerCab has a pretty sensitive CB built in.
If I may make a suggestion on how to approach the wiring issue, instead of disconnecting one set of feeders at a time, disconnect all of the feeders at the outset and then re-connect one set of feeders at a time. In my experience, that will expedite your efforts.
It is good that you have no solid state circuit breakers on your layout because that will eliminate a potential issue with any conflict between solid state components and the mechanical relay on the AR-1.
One thing is certain and that is that you have a short caused by reverse polarity and the AR-1 is either not sensing it or not correcting it. As you add back each set of feeders, you will eventually find the culprit if it is the feeder wires.
Of course, there is always the possibilty that you will reconnect all of the sets of feeder wires without correcting the short. In that case, you will need to reconsider the placement of the gaps. This is where a copy of your track diagram would help immensely.
If it is not the feeders or the gaps, that leaves only the sub-bus or the AR-1 itself.
Good luck.
Even if you just draw it on a piece of paper and take a picture, or make a crude drawing using Paint - please, post a track plan and we can probably get this figured out very quickly. All you need is a free account on one of the photo sites like Photobucket. Or just PM me, I'll give you my email and I can post the picture on my personal web site.
I want to make sure you guys that have been so eager to help know that I really appreciate it. We will get this sorted out. It has to be one of those things that is so obvious you just don't see it. I haven't been able to work on it for a couple of days though 'cause things just get in the way some times (chemo). I'm back and going to start disconnecting one set of feeders at a time and checking the problem till I find where Murphy is hiding. meanwhile, Rich, to answer your question, I do not have any circuit breakers, solid state or otherwise, installed. Layout is so small and simple I didn't see the need for them, especially since the PowerCab has a pretty sensitive CB built in. I'm thinking of installing a light bulb across the switch where the short keeps occurring to see if that will help. Any thoughts on that? I tend to agree that it seems to be a wiring issue, sub-bus or feeder (more likely a feeder). But where... Anyway - I'm going after it now.
Just a follow up to Randy's comments. With that mechanical relay, you can hear the AR-1 trip. It is an audible click.
It sounds like you are saying that the trains can go around the looop one way, but not the other? The AR-1 has to trip at least once no matter which way you run around a reverse loop - if you enter the loop on the side that just happens to already match up, there's no tripping of the AR-1 and the train enters the loop, but if the polarity was matched on entry, it definitely will not on exiting, and the AR-1 would have to trip. So if you cna both enter and exit the loop in one direction without the AR-1 tripping at all, you most definitely have something not wired correctly or have gaps missing.
trainwrek The Input side of the AR-1 powers the reverse loop power distribution panel.
What do you mean by this? While holding AR-1 in hand with the terminal strip pointed at your feet and the 5 terminal screws heads toward you, your two wires from the power source should attach to the AR-1 on the right side most 2 terminal screws. The middle screw should have nothing. The left side should go to only the feeders that are in the reversing section.