short video of the close-to-finished product, particularly if anyone's interested in hearing the quad sugar cube speakers coming out the tender floor. I have a lot to learn now in terms of programming the cv values, had to read up quite a bit on the TCS site just to change the loco direction and chuff rate, etc. The audio assist is pretty neat, though. Any recommendations on good, simple overviews of tweaking steam sounds? I'd appreciate learning of any if anyone's got some to recommend.
I still need to go back and clean up the boiler to tender connection, and I will attempt a headlight when I get to the point of decaling and weathering the engine. But for now it seems to work well. (sorry for the abrupt cut off at the end!)
okay, after a bunch of reading and some trial and error, I got the locomotive to move and and also got full range of sounds from the decoder. Three issues were in play.
First, on this thread http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/211360/2314577.aspx I read Maxman's comment:
Note that some decoders (mainly sound decoders) can only be adjusted on the main because they require more power than is normally available on the program track. I don't believe that the PowerCab actually has different power outputs for the two programming modes, but that knowledge is beyond my pay grade.
Turns out the decoder needed to be programmed on the main; or at least it only finally worked when I used the program on the main function.
Second, the TCS site gave some basic troubleshooting advice that I needed to re-read to do a factory reset on the decoder, which I must have messed up somehow somewhere along the way http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Technical_Info/Tech_Info/FAQPage.php?q=7 :
. . . start by performing a decoder factory reset by writing a value of 2 into CV8. The decoder should now respond to its default address of three. Does it respond to three? If yes, then the decoder is ok. Try programming the decoder as needed one CV at a time and test the operation after each programming change.
That piece of information was very helpful, and after doing the factory reset I was able to reprogram the long address on the main and everything worked.
The other thread that proved helpful was this one: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/228926/2559495.aspx on audio assist and potential issues with trying to program the deoder using JMRI. I had been tempted to try using JMRI but decided against it after seeing this thread; I will stick to using the Powercab but did not play with the audio assist yet.
As it was pretty late already when I finally got the loco to work, I decided to leave things off there at that point, I'll come back to it tomorrow.
Have to say those quad speakers sound pretty good! I wasn't really paying attention to sound quality at that point, honestly I was just happy to get the loco to move--but those quad speakers seem to have been an excellent choice for a relatively small tender.
on edit: to Maxman's question about Powercab, I was just rereading the NCE manual and sure enough, they mention the fact that sound decoders will likely draw too much power for the programming track. So I'm guessing that's what fundamentally was the problem:
okay, next update but also a problem. I got everything tucked in and squared away inside the tender, also got the speakers anchored pretty tight against the floor of the tender. Hooked everything up this afternoon for a test before figuring out how to route the wiring in the boiler.
Only problem--no movement. I get sound just fine, the speakers sound great, but no response to the throttle on the Powercab. Is there something simple I haven't thought of that could be interfering with the decoder's operation? crossed polarity, that kind of thing? I'm not sure where to start in terms of figuring out where the problem lies. Or perhaps there's a programming issue with the Wowsound that I'm not familiar with?
thanks in advance again for whatever suggestions you can make.
Jim
Haven't been able to do much on this engine for the past week or so, but did have an hour or two this afternoon to assemble the quad speakers, wire them up, and test them. Also drilled the holes in the tender floor for the sound.
Roughed in the connection to the motor and took it for a test drive, everything seemed to work fine although with no weight on the drivers or tender wheels, power pickup was spotty at best. But the speakers throw sound and the engine goes forward and reverse. I will plan on insulating all the connections you see in the pictures below before going much further.
The questions I have now are about how best to go about sealing everything up in the tender. I have some good automotive double sided tape and can fix the speaker chamber to the floor with some of that. After I insulate the wiring connections, can I tape the decoder to the top of the speakers? or do the speakers vibrate too much for that to be a good idea? Or would it be best to tape the decoder and the keep alive unit to the sides of the tender body? I'm not sure there's enough room on the tender floor for them to both lay flat. I also understand that the decoder may generate some heat, anything in that regard that I need to pay attention to or be aware of?
Eventually I also would like to drill for a headlight, but I may put that off until some point in the future. I'd really like to get this loco buttoned up and functioning properly and smoothly before spending more time on lighting. I'll plan on a 6pin connector between tender and engine; I'll also insulate/tape the ends of any unused wires so I don't risk any shorts with them.
Anyway. Thought I would update the thread and get some feedback on how to anchor the electronics in the tender before moving forward. thanks!
So on the speaker assembly, I've been reading some threads here on MR but also looking at photos on the web, starting to understand that people assemble these speakers in lots of different ways. This thread here http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/p/243678/2714277.aspx was helpful in large part because of the link to Tony's Train Exchange, which has the photo here and an explanation that goes along with it. So when I get back to the project tomorrow, that's how I'll glue the sugar cubes together.
On the connection between engine and tender, I had assumed I'd use one of the TCS micro-connectors, but if I need an 8 pin connection, is there anything similar you guys would recommend using? or what would work best in that situation?
doctorwayne I think that those Powerhouse locos have a diecast boiler, and in that case, there'd be little or no room for a speaker. Wayne
I think that those Powerhouse locos have a diecast boiler, and in that case, there'd be little or no room for a speaker.
Wayne
I slipped a small screwdriver in there to gauge the depth/distance I'd have to drill out the headlight, but I didn't measure the diameter of the space. I *think* one of those sugar cube speakers would fit--plus I think I got the larger 9mmx16mm speakers, SBS sells an even smaller 8mmx12mm one. I'll mic the opening when I get back there.
rrinker Does it have pickups on both sides in th loco, or is it like most brass and one side of the loco picks up, and the other side is the tender wheels? Either way you will need at least 5 wires to the loco - 2 for the headlight, 2 for the motor, and 1 for the pickup (maybe 2). So definitely the 6 pin connector, if the speaker is going in the tender. If you put the speaker in the loco, you'll need 8 pins - and witht he tiny size of those sugar cube speakers, maybe you can fit one up front int he smokebox area - which would make for some nice realistic sound because you would have chuffs coming from the right end of the loco - by the stack. As for the speaker - it looks like you have one of the quad sound chambers there. What shows on the app notes there, you have the speaker, you have a gasket on the speaker, and then you have the sidewalls of the chamber, which you can stack to make a deeper one, and then you have a cap to seal the open end. Notice one of the other products he has is a 'boiler baffle' which is a rounded chamber to fit in the boiler - if there's room in there, that's what I'm talking about for enhanced sound. --Randy
Does it have pickups on both sides in th loco, or is it like most brass and one side of the loco picks up, and the other side is the tender wheels? Either way you will need at least 5 wires to the loco - 2 for the headlight, 2 for the motor, and 1 for the pickup (maybe 2). So definitely the 6 pin connector, if the speaker is going in the tender. If you put the speaker in the loco, you'll need 8 pins - and witht he tiny size of those sugar cube speakers, maybe you can fit one up front int he smokebox area - which would make for some nice realistic sound because you would have chuffs coming from the right end of the loco - by the stack.
As for the speaker - it looks like you have one of the quad sound chambers there. What shows on the app notes there, you have the speaker, you have a gasket on the speaker, and then you have the sidewalls of the chamber, which you can stack to make a deeper one, and then you have a cap to seal the open end. Notice one of the other products he has is a 'boiler baffle' which is a rounded chamber to fit in the boiler - if there's room in there, that's what I'm talking about for enhanced sound.
--Randy
Power pickup is the standard right rail in the loco and left wheel in the tender. Because this loco runs so well to start with, and also because I got the wowsound decoder with the keep-alive module included, I'm going to leave the power pickup alone on this engine to keep things simple. But I absolutely LOVE the idea of including at least one of the speakers in the boiler. I opened it up to see if I could put the decoder and speakers in the boiler, and there is no way--just too tight, and it's a die-cast boiler (not soldered brass). So not enough room for everything. But there is certainly enough room to slip a single speaker up in the smokebox. So I may just do that--in which case I'll have to get an 8pin connector as you suggest, but that's no problem, they get shipped quickly enough.
I didn't stare at the quad sound chamber long enough--perhaps it is two parts and I didn't realize it? the wall part and then a flat part that covers all four chambers? that makes more sense, I'll check that again later when I get back to the shop.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
okay, so it looks like this Powerhouse Mike one will be my first sound install, I'm not going to mind drilling holes in that cheap tender the way I'd be nervous about my other locos.
Gave everything a trial run to make sure I understand the wiring sequence (surprisingly no installation photos on the TCS site for a brass, non- plug-and-play steam locomotive install). Hooked up a single speaker. Put it on the programming track, got it to go forward, reverse, and got sound. So . . . so far so good.
Some questions: I have both a four pin micro-connector for the loco to tender connection, but also a 6 pin connector. At the moment I'm only planning a headlight installation through the boiler. Which connector to use: 4pin or 6 pin?
Second question. I just want to make sure I'm clear about the sugar cube speaker setup. I have the quad speaker combo (photo below), but on the Streamlined Backshop site I want to make sure I'm looking at the right photos that show which surfaces get glued to what. Also I am a bit confused by their use of the interchangeable (?) terms 'chamber,' the 'cap,' and the 'baffle' (I'm looking at "sugar cube application notes"). Do these all refer to the same thing? (I believe chamber=cap, but not sure if the chamber=cap=baffle.)
I assume from their photos that what they are calling the "cap" gets glued opening side down to the clear plastic lip of the speaker? which would leave the exposed metal surface with the soldering points open facing down/away from the cap?
At any rate, I did get the single speaker wired fine with no chamber just to test it and program the decoder, and it all worked. Now I just need to be sure I am putting the quad speaker assembly together correctly.
thanks again for answering my noob questions.
puzzle solved. Credit the assist to the fb brass backshop group. There are tabs through the floor on only ONE end, and under the trucks. Easy to miss in poor light (ie my bench. still looking at clamp-on Luxo-style lamps, this seals the deal ).
You bend those back and unscrew the coupler screw, which holds the whole thing together. And the bottom basically falls out. Pretty clever actually, but a pretty cheap way to put a tender together.
Photos in case anyone else runs into this.
It looks to me as if the twist of a screwdriver in those slots at the edge of the floor would allow removal of the floor.
I think it has something to do with those tabs on the side, but I don't want to bend anything out of square if that isn't it. I ran out of time, tomorrow I'll pull that screw on the coupler pocket. pretty sure no hidden screws under the trucks. it's just weird.
No screws on the ends, expecially the drawbar end? Or if you turn the trucks, not under there? The back might just be one screw, the one through the coupler pocket. Looks almost like tabs on the sides in the middle, but a brass tender won't be held on with tabs like a plastic one would.
Still thinking about my first steam sound installation. Candidate 1 was the Alco Erie brass loco with the Vandy tender, pretty sure I've ruled that out as my first install. Candidate 2 was my NJCB LV camelback, but I'm tired of working on that one after regearing it and now just want to let it rest for a while. So Candidate 3 is a nice-running, inexpensive Oriental Limited Powerhouse 2-8-2 that I picked up a while ago, only problem is its fairly cheap tender.
Can't figure out how to get it apart--the wheels seem to be attached with a cotter pin-looking device, and there are no obvious screws. Has anyone taken one of these apart to install a decoder in the tender? Thought I would ask before either (a) taking this tender apart by brute force, or (b) taking the boiler off to see what kind of room we're talking about up front.
Thanks in advance once again!!