If you want directional lights, you need a second light bulb, oor better yet, two LEDs. The A4X already has resistors for the LEDs. The simple way is to keep both in the middle, with something between the two so when the front oen is on it doesn't shine through the rear one and vice-versa. I cut the light bars back and attach the LEDs directly to the ends of the light bars. Either way works.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
JimT richhotrain Here is a link to the NCE DA-SR at Tony's Train Exchange. http://tonystrains.com/product/nce-da-sr-decoder/ Perfect fit for the Atlas RS-1. Rich This thread reminded me that I had an NCE DA-SR on hand, so I pulled it out and installed it on an early RS-3. Photo below, really easy (you'll see I didn't even cut the clips off the power feeds). I did have to flip the motor feeds when I remembered the LVRR ran these long hood forward. The NCE instructions talk both about having on-board resistors but also about adding 1k resistors to the LEDs. The instructions say that you need to cut the trace to take advantage of the on-board resistors. Here's a question: do you have to cut the trace if if you simply install 1k resistors on the LEDs themselves? or do you need to do both? in which case I'm having a hard time from the NCE instruction diagram figuring out where to cut. If anyone wants to see them the NCE instructions for the DA-SR are at https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/200303669/DASRv35-d-_solder_pads.pdf . Followup question: on the TCS website's installation photos for the TCS A4x, the guy doing the install simply taped two incandescents to the top of his circuit board and separated them with an electrical tape shield--a pretty elegant and simple alternative to pulling out the light bars, cutting them, polishing them, possibly adding 2pin connectors to separate the shell from the chassis, and then after all that getting everything to fit. His photos are at http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/Atlas/RS3/atlas_rs3.htm . I don't have any incandescents that are that small on hand, but I might try to do the same thing with 3mm LEDs that I do have. Hence the question about the resistors and cutting the NCE trace. If I leave the DA-SR trace alone and wire 1k resistors to each LED, will it work? thanks as always for the help.
richhotrain Here is a link to the NCE DA-SR at Tony's Train Exchange. http://tonystrains.com/product/nce-da-sr-decoder/ Perfect fit for the Atlas RS-1. Rich
Here is a link to the NCE DA-SR at Tony's Train Exchange.
http://tonystrains.com/product/nce-da-sr-decoder/
Perfect fit for the Atlas RS-1.
Rich
This thread reminded me that I had an NCE DA-SR on hand, so I pulled it out and installed it on an early RS-3. Photo below, really easy (you'll see I didn't even cut the clips off the power feeds). I did have to flip the motor feeds when I remembered the LVRR ran these long hood forward.
The NCE instructions talk both about having on-board resistors but also about adding 1k resistors to the LEDs. The instructions say that you need to cut the trace to take advantage of the on-board resistors. Here's a question: do you have to cut the trace if if you simply install 1k resistors on the LEDs themselves? or do you need to do both? in which case I'm having a hard time from the NCE instruction diagram figuring out where to cut.
If anyone wants to see them the NCE instructions for the DA-SR are at https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/200303669/DASRv35-d-_solder_pads.pdf .
Followup question: on the TCS website's installation photos for the TCS A4x, the guy doing the install simply taped two incandescents to the top of his circuit board and separated them with an electrical tape shield--a pretty elegant and simple alternative to pulling out the light bars, cutting them, polishing them, possibly adding 2pin connectors to separate the shell from the chassis, and then after all that getting everything to fit. His photos are at http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/Atlas/RS3/atlas_rs3.htm .
I don't have any incandescents that are that small on hand, but I might try to do the same thing with 3mm LEDs that I do have. Hence the question about the resistors and cutting the NCE trace. If I leave the DA-SR trace alone and wire 1k resistors to each LED, will it work?
thanks as always for the help.
Yesterday I received my TCS AX4 decoder and installing it in my RS-1 turned out to be very straight forward as far as the motor function. The decoder clipped neatly into place on the tabs previously used for the plastic board.
In the DC configuration, there was a single incandescent light poking through the middle of that plastic board which no must be reposition. The instruction diagram shows wiring to two seperate bulbs. I returned to this thread and went to the link provided in the above post. If I am understanding this, I now need two incandescents, one for each direction wired to opposite ends of the decoder. I'd appreciate if someone could confirm whether that is right or wrong before I make the soldering connections.
Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. The engine runs beautifully even at very low speeds. It will be a nice addition to my transition era roster.
As a side note, after acquiring this old DC loco on ebay and installing the decoder, I see now Atlas is offering a new DCC version of the RS-1 with sound. Of course I will have to get one.
123, 125, 126 - still no BEMF on any of those.
DH166 - yes, that has BEMF.
jecorbett davidmbedard DH123 has been replaced with the DH125 as Digitraxs bread and butter decoder. I just went to the Digitrax website. I went through all 7 pages of mobile decoders and the DH125 didn't appear. Is this a product that has been announced but is not yet available?
davidmbedard DH123 has been replaced with the DH125 as Digitraxs bread and butter decoder.
I just went to the Digitrax website. I went through all 7 pages of mobile decoders and the DH125 didn't appear. Is this a product that has been announced but is not yet available?
Alton Junction
Yeah, they probably should have reversed those two paragraphs.
davidmbedardDH123 has been replaced with the DH125 as Digitraxs bread and butter decoder.
richhotrain JimT But the NCE instructions definitely make it sound like they recommend adding your own resistors in addition to the ones they provide, so the instructions are very confusing if that's not the case. NCE instructions always fall far short of comprehensive, but the instructions for using resistors seem fairly clear. Here is the operative paragraph for the DA-SR decoder. Built in resistors for LED lighting: We provide built-in resistors if you wish to use LEDs for lighting. These resistors are disabled at the factory with a “U” shaped shorting link built in to the circuit board. To use these resistors you must cut the link associated with each LED. The link for output 2 is marked on the diagram above. The link is a thin circuit board trace on the decoder that can be cut with a hobby knife. Make sure the link is completely cut or you will blow up your LED and possibly the function output of the decoder. Rich
JimT But the NCE instructions definitely make it sound like they recommend adding your own resistors in addition to the ones they provide, so the instructions are very confusing if that's not the case.
But the NCE instructions definitely make it sound like they recommend adding your own resistors in addition to the ones they provide, so the instructions are very confusing if that's not the case.
NCE instructions always fall far short of comprehensive, but the instructions for using resistors seem fairly clear. Here is the operative paragraph for the DA-SR decoder.
Built in resistors for LED lighting: We provide built-in resistors if you wish to use LEDs for lighting. These resistors are disabled at the factory with a “U” shaped shorting link built in to the circuit board. To use these resistors you must cut the link associated with each LED. The link for output 2 is marked on the diagram above. The link is a thin circuit board trace on the decoder that can be cut with a hobby knife. Make sure the link is completely cut or you will blow up your LED and possibly the function output of the decoder.
Agreed. I think this is what threw me off. But I figured better safe than sorry.
rrinker Really doesn't make sense, unless you had the LEDs hooked up backwards when you tried with the jumpers uncut - all those traces do is bridge around the resistor, it's not a component, nor does it serve to 'control' anything, so if it were already broken, you would have been running through the on board resistor all along. If it were too much current, it simply would have blown the LEDs - however a 1K resistor is generally sufficient, at HO voltages it is less than 10ma to the LED, and they can take 20-25ma. Going even lower is always safe, although TOO low a current level and the LED won't light up at all. --Randy --Randy
Really doesn't make sense, unless you had the LEDs hooked up backwards when you tried with the jumpers uncut - all those traces do is bridge around the resistor, it's not a component, nor does it serve to 'control' anything, so if it were already broken, you would have been running through the on board resistor all along. If it were too much current, it simply would have blown the LEDs - however a 1K resistor is generally sufficient, at HO voltages it is less than 10ma to the LED, and they can take 20-25ma. Going even lower is always safe, although TOO low a current level and the LED won't light up at all.
actually, that's it exactly, I think you figured it out. I think I DID wire the wires backwards initially, and it had to do with my keeping "front" and "rear" straight on the diagram in the instructions, versus "front" and "rear" the way the LV ran the engine long hood forward. Plus I wired the anode side of the LED to the output pad rather than to the common pad which is where I think it ended up (which confused me initially). But I'm not exactly sure now what I did, when. Anyway, I'm going to get another couple of these decoders, and I'll try it without the extra resistors and compare the two for brightness.
rrinker You should not have to cut trhe links if you added 1K resistors. It should have worked at full voltage to the headlight outputs with the resistor. Both cutting the jumper trace AND adding the 1K resistor just means less bright LEDs. If I blow the PDF up enough, it looks like the supplied LEDs are also 1K (they are surface mount types and say "102" on them which means 10 plus 2 more 0's, or 1000). So by cutting the jumper and adding a 1K resistor, you are running with 2K on each LED. Which means they are running on around 5ma. As long as they are bright enough for you, especially with all that light pipe. --Randy
You should not have to cut trhe links if you added 1K resistors. It should have worked at full voltage to the headlight outputs with the resistor. Both cutting the jumper trace AND adding the 1K resistor just means less bright LEDs. If I blow the PDF up enough, it looks like the supplied LEDs are also 1K (they are surface mount types and say "102" on them which means 10 plus 2 more 0's, or 1000). So by cutting the jumper and adding a 1K resistor, you are running with 2K on each LED. Which means they are running on around 5ma. As long as they are bright enough for you, especially with all that light pipe.
well, I definitely got nothing at all before cutting the trace, but that was with my own resistor added (that shouldn't have made a difference?). Checked them at that point hooked up to a 9v battery and they worked fine; then cut the trace and they worked fine from the rails. At any rate it would surely be a lot easier not to add them, I'll leave those out for the next one--I've got several more of these to go. But the NCE instructions definitely make it sound like they recommend adding your own resistors in addition to the ones they provide, so the instructions are very confusing if that's not the case.
In many ways a dim headlight for a circa 1950 diesel locomotive might make some sense, no? I've got a 1948 Ford F1 with a 6 volt system, and the headlights are dim, dim, dim. Can't imagine a diesel engine of the same vintage had very bright headlights . . . but maybe that's just me making lemonade with lemons I guess.
JimT JimT [snip] The NCE instructions talk both about having on-board resistors but also about adding 1k resistors to the LEDs. The instructions say that you need to cut the trace to take advantage of the on-board resistors. Here's a question: do you have to cut the trace if if you simply install 1k resistors on the LEDs themselves? or do you need to do both? in which case I'm having a hard time from the NCE instruction diagram figuring out where to cut. [snip] Followup question: on the TCS website's installation photos for the TCS A4x, the guy doing the install simply taped two incandescents to the top of his circuit board and separated them with an electrical tape shield--a pretty elegant and simple alternative to pulling out the light bars, cutting them, polishing them, possibly adding 2pin connectors to separate the shell from the chassis, and then after all that getting everything to fit. His photos are at http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/Atlas/RS3/atlas_rs3.htm . I don't have any incandescents that are that small on hand, but I might try to do the same thing with 3mm LEDs that I do have. Hence the question about the resistors and cutting the NCE trace. If I leave the DA-SR trace alone and wire 1k resistors to each LED, will it work? okay, I answered my own question(s) today, and here are some photos in the hope that someone in my position in the future will benefit from seeing photos of how it works. Also the OP might try this decoder and do the same thing I did in terms of lighting. Top photo shows the LEDs wired in directly to the board: no connections to the shell, no cutting the light bars, nothing extra. Just bend the LED wires to fit, put a resistor on the anode side, and insulate well. You DO have to cut the trace at "output 2" on the NCE DA-SR board for LEDs to work, even with adding your own resistor (which makes more sense to me now in hindsight). I actually used NCE's online manual for the decoder, which is much much clearer than the faint xeroxed pages that came with the decoder. It became much more obvious where to cut and everything worked just fine. The second photo shows the black electrical tape to mask the backsides of each LED so they won't show light in both directions while moving either in forward or reverse. This was pretty easy to do, and then I taped everything to stay in place with kapton. It all fits very easily in the space between the light bars in the shell. The final photo shows the reassembled engine with headlight on. Having both the onboard resistor plus the 1k probably reduces the light output somewhat, but I think it looks pretty good. The handrails took a bit of a beating, I had the shell off and on several times, so I'll have to repaint those at some point. Anyway, I think this is a pretty easy method for lighting the older Atlas RS3 without having to make any modfications whatsoever to the lightbars. Hope this helps.
JimT [snip] The NCE instructions talk both about having on-board resistors but also about adding 1k resistors to the LEDs. The instructions say that you need to cut the trace to take advantage of the on-board resistors. Here's a question: do you have to cut the trace if if you simply install 1k resistors on the LEDs themselves? or do you need to do both? in which case I'm having a hard time from the NCE instruction diagram figuring out where to cut. [snip] Followup question: on the TCS website's installation photos for the TCS A4x, the guy doing the install simply taped two incandescents to the top of his circuit board and separated them with an electrical tape shield--a pretty elegant and simple alternative to pulling out the light bars, cutting them, polishing them, possibly adding 2pin connectors to separate the shell from the chassis, and then after all that getting everything to fit. His photos are at http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/Atlas/RS3/atlas_rs3.htm . I don't have any incandescents that are that small on hand, but I might try to do the same thing with 3mm LEDs that I do have. Hence the question about the resistors and cutting the NCE trace. If I leave the DA-SR trace alone and wire 1k resistors to each LED, will it work?
[snip]
okay, I answered my own question(s) today, and here are some photos in the hope that someone in my position in the future will benefit from seeing photos of how it works. Also the OP might try this decoder and do the same thing I did in terms of lighting.
Top photo shows the LEDs wired in directly to the board: no connections to the shell, no cutting the light bars, nothing extra. Just bend the LED wires to fit, put a resistor on the anode side, and insulate well.
You DO have to cut the trace at "output 2" on the NCE DA-SR board for LEDs to work, even with adding your own resistor (which makes more sense to me now in hindsight). I actually used NCE's online manual for the decoder, which is much much clearer than the faint xeroxed pages that came with the decoder. It became much more obvious where to cut and everything worked just fine.
The second photo shows the black electrical tape to mask the backsides of each LED so they won't show light in both directions while moving either in forward or reverse. This was pretty easy to do, and then I taped everything to stay in place with kapton. It all fits very easily in the space between the light bars in the shell.
The final photo shows the reassembled engine with headlight on. Having both the onboard resistor plus the 1k probably reduces the light output somewhat, but I think it looks pretty good. The handrails took a bit of a beating, I had the shell off and on several times, so I'll have to repaint those at some point.
Anyway, I think this is a pretty easy method for lighting the older Atlas RS3 without having to make any modfications whatsoever to the lightbars. Hope this helps.
davidmbedard You may consider turning OFF BEMF as an option. Sometimes technology gets in the way.... A fine runner like this really doesnt need BEMF on....give it a go. David B
You may consider turning OFF BEMF as an option. Sometimes technology gets in the way.... A fine runner like this really doesnt need BEMF on....give it a go.
David B
The OP didn't say what Digitrax decoder he used, but he did say "most basic" which to me means DH123 series - no BEMF. I wouldn't consider a DH165 as "most basic"
The TCS self adjusting BEMF may indeed be adjusting to very little BEMF action, but mine with TCS decoders do run great at tie by tie speeds. I don't think it would be quite that good without BEMF at all. Maybe good enough for most people. They are top notch motors that kato used, but sometimes even Kato has a dud - had one that would just stop at slow speeds. Wouldn't restart unless the motor was turned slightly. Turns out whoever glued the commutator segments must have been having a bad day because there was a huge blob of the epoxy used right on the one segment. Scrapped it off, put the motor back together, adn it was as good as new. (well, it WAS new, it had been purchased and then stored away for 15 years or so until there was a layout to run it on)
jecorbett Mark R. It doesn't look like this ? .... https://www.flickr.com/photos/frankzappai/16431918649/ Mark. That is exactly what it looked like. I tried to cram the Digitrax decoder behind the motor (to the right of it in this picture). I managed to squeeze it in and still get the shell back on but it was pushing down on the powered truck to the point where it forced the wheels closest to the motor raised up. Maybe I should have tried it on top of the motor as NP2626 suggested. I'm going to see if that works if I haven't fried the decoder. Does anyone know a method of testing to see if a decoder is still good other than to wire it to the loco and see if it still works. I tried clamping the lead wires to my programming track and seeing if I could set the address that way. It didn't accept it which is why I think I might have fried it.
Mark R. It doesn't look like this ? .... https://www.flickr.com/photos/frankzappai/16431918649/ Mark.
It doesn't look like this ? ....
https://www.flickr.com/photos/frankzappai/16431918649/
Mark.
That is exactly what it looked like. I tried to cram the Digitrax decoder behind the motor (to the right of it in this picture). I managed to squeeze it in and still get the shell back on but it was pushing down on the powered truck to the point where it forced the wheels closest to the motor raised up.
Maybe I should have tried it on top of the motor as NP2626 suggested. I'm going to see if that works if I haven't fried the decoder.
Does anyone know a method of testing to see if a decoder is still good other than to wire it to the loco and see if it still works. I tried clamping the lead wires to my programming track and seeing if I could set the address that way. It didn't accept it which is why I think I might have fried it.
You need a load on the motor wires to program, so if all you hooked up were the red and black and it wouldn't program, that doesn't mean the decoder is fried. Only way to test a decoder is to hook it all up and try it - that's all "decoder testers" do - provide a place to hook up the decoder with lights and a motor load so you can see if everything works. The "test" is you selecting the decoder and trying the throttle in both directions, and turning on and off all the functions one by one to verify they work.
These are about the only ones I DON'T hard wire (even with an 8 pin plug, that's usually on a factory circuit board of unknown and sometimes just outright bad design - I remove that stuff and solder the wires in most of my installs, that way I KNOW the wires are connected to the correct locations) - it's just too east to replace the factory 'board' with the decoder, plus that still meets my "remove the factory board" criteria. Newer versions of that same loco do have a regular electrical circuit board with an 8 pin plug - and on those I'd still use the TCS A4X (I use TCS for all my motor only decoders).
I have an old Kato RS1 in ATSF and added a KT1000 sound decoder with a cell phone type speaker. I even fit a KA1 Keep Alive in the cab. It was an interesting project and one of my favorite locos. The decoder install was pretty straight forward but positioning the speaker and KA required some planning and I must admit some trial and error.
Marty C
Mark R. As I mentioned in my original reply, the TCS A4X decoder is a direct replacement for that plastic board .... Mark.
As I mentioned in my original reply, the TCS A4X decoder is a direct replacement for that plastic board ....
I misunderstood what you meant by a plastic board. I thought you were referring to a circuit board. Many of the more recent DC locos I have converted had a small circuit board which could be swapped out with a decoder in its place.
I like that the decoder has terminals to be soldered to. The Digitrax decoder I tried to use had nothing but lose wires that need to be spliced into and soldered to the existing wiring.
Here's a step by step for you ....
http://www.tcsdcc.com/Customer_Content/Installation_Pictures/HO_Scale/Atlas/RS1/RS1.htm
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
I have an article saved that shows how to do it in an RS3. Not really that difficult - kind of easy if you just completely give up one of the weights, or you can slice it down. That fits a bigger speaker than you could cram in the cab, plus you don;t see it.
As for the OP - those two long brass fingers on either side are clipped under tabs on that plastic. The pop off. Then the whole big piece of grey plastic comes off, leaving a space for either the various board decoders (add a third - the Digitrax DH165A0 (or the DH165K0 - for extra cost you can have them solder on littpe pieces of wire for the connectors on the truck wires to slide on to). So that's 3 options for motor decoders, or the Loksound Select Direct is a drop in board sound decoder. Or, with all that room, you can now hard wire a regular harnessed decoder, no need to cram anything. That grey plastic 'board' eats up a lot of space.
If you want sound, Loksound makes the same style board as well (Loksound Select Direct) and there's plenty of room to install a small speaker in the end over the truck at either (or both) end as the RS1 doesn't have the separate weights over the trucks like the RS3 does.
That TCS A4X decoder has the same footprint as the NCE DA-SR decoder.
rrinker Yes, I have a large stash of that era RS-3, since I need lots of them. I've converted a bunch. So far motor only, but the next couple I am going to put sound in. --Randy
Yes, I have a large stash of that era RS-3, since I need lots of them. I've converted a bunch. So far motor only, but the next couple I am going to put sound in.
If you figure out where to put a speaker, let me know.
rrinker Interesting, I am only aware of maybe 3 versiosn of the RS-1, the original Kato one with the plastic board, the first Atlas motor ones with a regular circuit board, and the later Atlas ones that add an 8 pin socket. At least in HO. Was there an even earlier one, from when Roco made Atlas locos, which would just have wires? --Randy
Interesting, I am only aware of maybe 3 versiosn of the RS-1, the original Kato one with the plastic board, the first Atlas motor ones with a regular circuit board, and the later Atlas ones that add an 8 pin socket. At least in HO. Was there an even earlier one, from when Roco made Atlas locos, which would just have wires?
That's my thinking as well. The one I posted a picture of came out in the late 80's.