I'm getting to the point I need to start outfitting more of my diesels There are two major categories of decoders I'll need:
1) those to fit Athearn RTR plug and play sockets (I have lots of tunnel motors and SD45s)
2) circuit board type that fit KATO GP35/F40PH/SD40-2 and Proto 2000 GP30's, etc.
Also Genesisi GP40-2's, GP9's and F units.
At one time Joe Fugate recommended the TCS T1 as an economical "fleet" decoder, but I noticed those have gone up substantially and there seem to be other decoders for significantly lower cost now from NCE and Digitrax. I do have a few T1 and T4's but got them a few years ago when they could be had for $16/17 ea. Now they are much higher when I look at prices online.
I am looking for some low cost fleet decoders that perform as good as the TCS T1/T4 etc. but at a lower per unit cost.
Recommendations?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
How big is your fleet? NCE, I think, sells 10-packs of good, low-end decoders.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Empire Trains in Webster, New York, where NCE decoders are made, sells a 10 pack of the NCE D13SRJ decoder with a harness for around $14 each, including shipping. For the models with a 9-pin JST header already installed, no soldering is required.
cacole Empire Trains in Webster, New York, where NCE decoders are made, sells a 10 pack of the NCE D13SRJ decoder with a harness for around $14 each, including shipping. For the models with a 9-pin JST header already installed, no soldering is required.
This is my fleet decoder. I buy them in a ten pack from caboose hobbies in denver. The 9 pin part is nice because it will plug directly in to most locomotives or a conversion harness is available for 8 pin connections.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
Yep, it's NCE sumtim' for just about any purpose if sound is not in the equation. I've found them to be a reliable, robust, and econimical solutio.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Same price at Modeltrainstuff.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
Back when TCS T1's were $15-16, the NCE D13SRJ was still $12 in 10 packs, and they were equivalent.
The TCS T1 of today has BEMF, the NCE does not. The Digitrax DH12x also does not have BEMF which is why it is cheaper than the T1. The comparable Digitrax current decoder would be a DH126.
It all depends if BEMF is somethign you want. You can get good slow speed out of the NCE decoders - I used to use those exclusively. But you can;t touch the ultra slow capability of a good BEMF decoder like the T1. You can save a buck for Athearn locos by getting the T1A, which comes without the wire harness and is about $1 cheaper than the T1.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I've read that BEMF is something which is not useful when loco's are running together in MU - otherwise they supposedly buck against each other. Most of my diesels will run in MU with others so that is something I was wondering about.
I do have some TCS T4's insalled in a few Athearn RTR tunnel motors and an SD45 and they seem to run well, and I have not adjusted any of the CV's the control the BEMF - they are running at default settings. They did run together ok but I haven't delved into the details.
As far as the quality of loco's, I listed them in the first post - I'd say most of them are good to very good quality - the Athearn RTR tunnel motors and SD45's are pretty nice although the motors are not Genesis or KATO type of course.
The feedback is appreciated - certainly keep it coming.
TCS BEMF is auto-tuning for the most part. I notice when I put a freshly decodered loco on the track, it doesn;t immediately have a nice smooth spped step 1 creep. After it runs a few feet in either direction - now it works as expected.
As for the issue when consisted - I am convinced half of it comes from the default setting on Digitrax decoders that actually turns off BEMF when using advanced consisting (like NCE uses) and the other half is myth. My typical club power consist is a pair of Proto 2000 GP7s sandwiching an Atlas Trainmaster. Both Geeps have TCS T1 decoders, the Atlas has a QSI. All have BEMF. I've done NO speed matching. Not even a simple CV2-6-5 three step matching. They run fine together, for hours at a time. None of them spin their wheels, none of them get dragged around. None of them run hot. And it's not just flat running, besides the inevitable venue floor not being level so the whole layout has a bit of a grade, there are specific grades on one of the alternate routes. So far, no issues. I'll see what happens on my new layout, which will have significant grades in some places. But I expect everything will be fine, and the only problems will be mechanical - too much end play in the drive line and so forth.
I've noticed the newer soundtraxx non-sound decoders work pretty well, and seem to be a fair bit less expesive than the their TCS equivalents.
I have an Athearn RTR SW1000 and SW1500, one has a TCS T4 and the other has a Soundtraxx MC2H104P9 (why can't they make a simpler name) and they both seem to run pretty well.
As of now, I'm kind of torn for decoder choices between Soundtraxx, ESU, and TCS (in order of price, from less expensive to most expensive). Suprisingly the is less expensive then the TCS decoders.
What gets fun is trying to get a sound decoder that works well with non-sound decoder. I haven't quiet gotten that down yet, but the last 2 sound-equipped locos I got have loksound and it's far easier to speed match (once I found the trim adjustments in JMRI) then the QSIs or the Tsunamis I have.
I'm wondering how well the new TCS wow-sounds will work. I just wish on the new decoder they would have done a 645 non-turbo. I would love to try out the keep alive and sound in my Genesis GP15 (bought with a Tsunami, but am not happy with it)
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
Modeltrainstuff has the Bowser sound refit kits for $80 - that's a Loksound Select decoder with 8 pin plug and a speaker with enclosure. Fin if you have an Alco or EMD F unit, unless you have a Loksound Programmer and can load a different sound set in them. These are full decoders, not limited feature versions. I am tempted to add to my sound inventory at that price - I only use Loksound anyway (except for that one Atlas TM with QSI). A while ago i decided t standardize on Loksound for my fleet sound decoders, they are cheaper and the diesel ones at least sound much better than Tsunami, especially the horns. Plus many of their diesel sets have just recently been re-recorded and updated. Plus the motor drive is incredible, and they don't need a booster to program.
I have noticed that Sountraxx is now offering no-sound decoders which appear basically equivelent to Digitrax, TCS, NCE decoders and the prices looked pretty decent. Being that they appear to be more recent, I was interested if anyone had experience with them.
As far as TCS, I've heard great things about them and they seemed to be one of the early adopters of BEMF in their more basic decoders, now which have shot up in price - ahem, so I was hoping the other manufacturers were offering their own basic decoders with BEFM so they would be able to compete - competition is good! I was disappointed that folks were saying the basic decoders from NCE, Digitrax etc. did not appear to have BEMF so hey, get on the stick!
I have very few sound diesels, so it's also an issue with MU - as 2 are Atlas GP40-2's which will usually be MU'd with non sound DCC diesels. I also added a Genesis GP40-2 with Tsunami (factory equipped). Same deal, will be MU with other geeps or tunnel motors.
keep it coming!
riogrande5761 I was disappointed that folks were saying the basic decoders from NCE, Digitrax etc. did not appear to have BEMF
Another option from Digitrax would be to go with an N-scale or Z-scale (DN136 or DZ126) decoder. You cannot get the 9 pin plug on them, but they are close to the price of the "economy" HO scale decoder, sometimes even cheaper, and they have Bemf compensation. With 1.0 amp continuous and 1.5 amp peak motor drive, they have enough power to drive most modern HO scale locos.
That's why Digitrax has 2 different lines, one with BEMF and one without, so you have an economy choice and a more advanced one, depending on how much you want to spend. I haven't tried a Series 6 decoder yet, bu the older BEMF versions had rather poor BEMF, definitely had to tweak teh CVs to get it workign good, and even then there were certain speed steps where there's be a lurch from one step to the next that you could almost but not quite tune out. Plus the old ones didn;t do nice lighting effects with LEDs. TCS and NCE have always handles LEDs as well as bulbs.
I'm not so sure about TCS prices shooting up. I checked some old orders, I paid $17.59 in 2009, they are $20.49 at the same dealer today. 3 bucks in 6 years is about how much everything else went up. The version sold today also adds a connector for a keep alive which the old ones do not have, and has a firmware update to program some KA settings. I may replace some with the KAT12 to get keep alive, simple plug in repalcement with the 9 pin plug.
It made some sense that everyone would eventually settle on a new base standard that included BEMF, you know, like it used to be your base level automobile used to have roll up windows and no AC, but now a days, your base model new car almost always has electric windows and AC. Something like that in the decoder world. I fully expect it will be that way, but may we aren't quite there.
BTW, SoundTraxx is now offering basic decoders too I noticed for decent prices. Anyone tried those yet?
I guess your right about price increase, less than I thought. Anyway, my train budget is shot for the next month or two, since I sprung for a new Tangent PRR X58 box car and more Athearn RTR Hi Side Thrall gons I found that are long out of production, so I'll continue to edumacate myself on decoders.
I doubt such a thing will happen - there are some people who are absolutely against BEMF. It's perceived strictly as 'cruise control' by some, which to them means their train will automatically maintain speed up a steep grade, unrealistically. It CAN be used like that, but it doesn't have to be. I prefer BEMF for the better performance at slow speeds when switchign and starting up. In many decoders you can configure the BEMF to drop off above certain speed steps, so at road speed it's still subject to slowing on grades, but when starting up it is nice and slow and smooth.
rrinkerIn many decoders you can configure the BEMF to drop off above certain speed steps, so at road speed it's still subject to slowing on grades, but when starting up it is nice and slow and smooth.
I like that idea. Which decoders work that way?
TCS and Loksound do it, not in exactly the same way, but both will allow BEMF for low speed control but at road speed, going up a hill with a load, your train will slow unless you give it more throttle.
And what are my decoder choices? Why, TCS for motor only and Loksond for sound.
rrinkerAnd what are my decoder choices? Why, TCS for motor only and Loksond for sound.
I've been buying TCS KA's for the locos that didn't come already equipped. I didn't realize what a smart decision I had made :)
rrinkerI doubt such a thing will happen - there are some people who are absolutely against BEMF. It's perceived strictly as 'cruise control' by some, which to them means their train will automatically maintain speed up a steep grade, unrealistically. It CAN be used like that, but it doesn't have to be.
Well, you never know, and just because not everyone likes it doesn't mean they can't shut if off. Way more cars come with cruise control now, but in most situations, you can't use it either. Just saying...
I prefer BEMF for the better performance at slow speeds when switchign and starting up. In many decoders you can configure the BEMF to drop off above certain speed steps, so at road speed it's still subject to slowing on grades, but when starting up it is nice and slow and smooth. --Randy
And whats not to like about smooth and slow? Thats why I'd like to have BEMF in all my decoders - duh! But I'm gathering information and getting feedback before I spend more money. Each persons comments are a data point so the more feedback the better.
I did look on the TCS website for mounting the T1 in the Athearn SD40T-2 but only shows it directly plugging into the 9 pin plug, I don't think the gyra light can be made to operate separately from the head light when plugged in like that so it's basically kind of a waste to have the performance yet not have the lighting effects correct - so I guess you have to spend the xtra on a harness to get it wired to the oscillating light separately from the headlight.
Just use the A4X, or A6X if you want ditch lights, and repalce the factory junk - replace the light bulbs with LEDs, too, cheapy AThearn and their junky light bulbs are a whole other thread. The 9 pin connection allows for 4 total function - you just have to tap off on the board seperately for the extra lights, since they are all tied together on the Athearn board. That's not enough for ditch lights, headlight, gyralight, and rear light though, you need a 5 (but usually they don't make 5, so really a 6) function decoder for all those lights. For SP's crazy lighting package, you pretty much need a second function-only decoder to get enough total functions to operate all that independently.
A T1 would never do, it only has 2 functions, the extra wirew in the 9 pin harness aren;t even connected to anything. A T4X has all 4 functions. Any brand decoder would be the same, it's how Athearn wired the factory board, not the 9 pin connection.
I'm pre-ditchlights - its the Mars or Pyle oscillating lights I need on most of my D&RGW or SP engines. But on Athearn SD's, I believe they will have to be wired separately. I don't think the UDE light on the Athearn SP engines is functional, nor were they used much in real live so I'm ok with only the main and oscillating light. I do have several SD45R's which had the revised light packages and plan on a couple of the SD40R's due out late this year.
As for the T1, the "budget" alternate wiring described by some would be to use function 1 for the main light and 2 for the oscillating and nothing for back up - yes I realize thats unacceptable for some - but speaking plainly - it's easier to have higher standards if you have the finances to back up those higher standards; that is why I am researching the various options out there and started this topic - economical fleet decoders and exploring all the options. Of course lower cost decoders means I'm going to have to accept possibly compromises, which may come in various kinds - so I want to be informed of what all those are - funtions is one thing, BEMF another etc.
The NCE decoder I mentioned previously that I use as my fleet decoder has 4 functions. I like you have the gyralight on my tunnel motors and Geeps. (I also model the Rio Grande). I removed all the quick connect boards and hardwired my locomotives. I connected the gyralight to the F5 function so that i could make it do its thing.
As for the non-sound soundtraxx decoders, I use those as well. My F7- A-B-A set has them in in the A units. The B unit has the sound decoder. Their lighting effects are some the of the best out there. You can have the lights do the gyralight thing when the horn blows and go steady when it is not. I like that the soundtraxx non-sound decoders have the same light functions as the sound decoders. I have two A-B-A sets where the A units have non-sound and the B has the sound decoder. All three units are powered (all are Old Stewart/Kato drives).
As for the tunnel motors, the majority of mine have sound because they have the perfect amount of space for a speaker (Railmaster hobbies makes a speaker/enclosure that fits almost perfectly where the removable wieght is attached). I mounted it above the air intake on the rear of the locomotive and used soundtraxx decoders.
One critical thing that I now require in all my decoders is the ability to set speed curves. I have some older locomotives that have ancient digitax decoder (DH-121's) in them and I am not able to speed curve them. They get the old decoder pulled out and the new NCE decoder is plugged in. I use the old digitrax decoders in things that are one-offs that will not be speed matched (mckeen car or doodlebugs)
Every locomotive on the layout runs with every other locomotive. It doesn't matter who the manufacturer is, they all run together. This is why a decoder that can be speed curved is important to me. I run multi-loco consists on all my trains so it is important for me that they run smoothly together.
The NCE, and Soundtraxx decoders (sound and non-sound) have everything I need. My Fleet decoder for non-sound is the NCE D13 SRJ sold in ten-packs (Currently $137.95 at caboose hobbies or your favorite dealer). For permanently coupled set that have sound but need multiple decoders i use the Soundtraxx non-sound.
i hope this helps out.