And I say to all you guys, to each his own,enjoy your hobby.May God Bless.
gatrhumpy mlehman I realized another difference between the two products. Surroundtraxx has the capability of running sound in up tgo six locos at once. That could be noisy. The Kato/Soundtraxx Analog Sound Box (ASB) supports just one loco at a time. I presume that you could just keep adding them if you needed more than one at a time in DC with it's one loco/consist per throttle architecture. Interestingly, there is a MIC input on the ASB...? What next, karaoke with your trains?!? Therein lies the problem and why I would never buy this. DCC sound is better in the locomotive than stationary sound, even if it's not 'hi-fi' sound.
mlehman I realized another difference between the two products. Surroundtraxx has the capability of running sound in up tgo six locos at once. That could be noisy. The Kato/Soundtraxx Analog Sound Box (ASB) supports just one loco at a time. I presume that you could just keep adding them if you needed more than one at a time in DC with it's one loco/consist per throttle architecture. Interestingly, there is a MIC input on the ASB...? What next, karaoke with your trains?!?
I realized another difference between the two products. Surroundtraxx has the capability of running sound in up tgo six locos at once. That could be noisy.
The Kato/Soundtraxx Analog Sound Box (ASB) supports just one loco at a time. I presume that you could just keep adding them if you needed more than one at a time in DC with it's one loco/consist per throttle architecture.
Interestingly, there is a MIC input on the ASB...? What next, karaoke with your trains?!?
Therein lies the problem and why I would never buy this. DCC sound is better in the locomotive than stationary sound, even if it's not 'hi-fi' sound.
And you are entitled to that opinion. Some others obviously feel differently and KATO feels they represent enough of a market to offer this product.
I find most HO onboard sound to be an annoying din, I can't even imagine how bad 20 minutes of onboard N scale sound would be.
And KATO is primarily an N scale company.
Sheldon
I think the SoundBox sounds like a good product. I plan to run a small layout with one engine, one operator, and a hand full of cars. I don't need a big DCC system with wireless throttles.
The SBX can also be plugged into headphones for quiet sessions, or plugged into my stereo for those Saturday no-ones-home-lets-get-as-loud-as-you-cab-get sessions. I also don't have to have a DCC sound decoder for ever locomotive model, as along as I have a matching sound card I'm good to go. I also already have a power pack.
I'm sure there is an issue of expandability, but it will be far in the future before I have to worry about a power pack and this box just not cutting it.
One last thing, maybe I read it wrong or it was answered, but I thought I read someone say the SoundBox was like a power pack. The SBX itself can't operate or control. It goes between your power pack and layout track. The box itself has to be powered somehow. Kato included some built in plugs in the side so it can plug directing into a Kato DC power pack, like their turnout control as website states, or to a non Kato brand DC pack with a plug/wire set. I think you can also get a convertor that plugs into the wall.
I use the Kato Soundbox on my DC N-scale railroad. I have been a model railroader since 1968 and have no interest in DCC. I would rather spend my hobby money on trains, track, and scenery than on electronic gadgetry.
What hasn't been mentioned here is the the Kato Soundbox provides not only sound (engine, horn, bell, brakes, air compressor), but also imparts momentum.
This makes a nice upgrade to a non-sound equipped loco. Because the sound is generated at the operating station, the effect is more "in the cab". After 26 years in railroading, and the last 16 as a loco engineer, I know well what these things sound like. The tiny speakers in an N-scale loco cannot begin to sound like a real loco. A layout with several sound-equipped steamers running at once sounds like a room full of sewing machines.
I get better quality sound with the Soundbox, and it works for all my locos. I am looking forward to an ALCO/GE sound card. I see now that Kato has a sound card for heavy steam. My Soundbox came with an EMD non-turbo 567 card, but I'm looking forward to a card for ALCOs.
Les
R/C is just way too generic - is my R/C car gas, or electric? Is my R/C plane gas, electric, or no engine at all? Does my R/C model train use DCC, something else but powered through the rail, or onboard batteries? Direct Radio has been used to distinguish from a radio DCC system to signify that the control signal goes direct to the loco and not through the rails, but then does my direct radio system use onboard batteries or does it draw power from the rails (or both)? Dead rail is about as exact as you can get - no power to the rails at all. Nothing ambiguous about that. Zee tracks, zhey are dead, kaput.
Plus you get a nifty TLA - DRS.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The sound system Kato came up with is simply something they hope will be successful and allow people who run DC systems to fool around with sound. Good luck to them and I hope is successful!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
rrinker Not according to the hobby press (and not just our hosts). Example, GMR, 12 layouts, 1 DC cab control, 11 some form of DCC. MRP, mostly the same, the number of DCC layouts is always significantly greater than the number of DC layouts. Now it could be like Apple iPhones - it's the top selling smartphone, but Android far outsells iOS - but that's because there are like 100 phones with Android. Combined - easily beats Apple. But compare Apple to just ONE Android model, they are wiping the floor with them. --Randy
Not according to the hobby press (and not just our hosts). Example, GMR, 12 layouts, 1 DC cab control, 11 some form of DCC. MRP, mostly the same, the number of DCC layouts is always significantly greater than the number of DC layouts.
Now it could be like Apple iPhones - it's the top selling smartphone, but Android far outsells iOS - but that's because there are like 100 phones with Android. Combined - easily beats Apple. But compare Apple to just ONE Android model, they are wiping the floor with them.
Additionally, I have seen layout articles on DC controlled layouts that simply did not mention anthing about control in the text - just the little footnote list would say "DC".
It's hard to believe someone writing an article about their layout would not at least mention it - I think the editors rule the day.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL As for all those who think that everyone should model like them, I let it go years ago. I just found it interesting that a company like KATO would invest in something like this - it shows they likely know something contrary to the "virtually everybody uses DCC" crowd. Sheldon, I think that the paranoia over DCC domination is premature. My sense is that if there were a way to count all individuals who own a layout, there would prove to be more DC users than DCC users. Rich Exactly my point. But if I say that, I'm just the nut who still uses DC. Sheldon
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL As for all those who think that everyone should model like them, I let it go years ago. I just found it interesting that a company like KATO would invest in something like this - it shows they likely know something contrary to the "virtually everybody uses DCC" crowd. Sheldon, I think that the paranoia over DCC domination is premature. My sense is that if there were a way to count all individuals who own a layout, there would prove to be more DC users than DCC users. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL As for all those who think that everyone should model like them, I let it go years ago. I just found it interesting that a company like KATO would invest in something like this - it shows they likely know something contrary to the "virtually everybody uses DCC" crowd.
As for all those who think that everyone should model like them, I let it go years ago. I just found it interesting that a company like KATO would invest in something like this - it shows they likely know something contrary to the "virtually everybody uses DCC" crowd.
Sheldon, I think that the paranoia over DCC domination is premature. My sense is that if there were a way to count all individuals who own a layout, there would prove to be more DC users than DCC users.
Rich
Exactly my point. But if I say that, I'm just the nut who still uses DC.
Alton Junction
rrinker Only way Dead Rail will make signaling easy is if you can convince everyone to go back to uninsulated wheelsets like in the 3 rail days (outside or inside). Then all you have to do is detect the short, you don't even need electronics. But such rolling stock would only be usable on a dead rail system. If not, you need either pickups, or resistors across the wheels same as reagular 2 rail. If anything takes off, it will be a combination system, where any complex sections of tracks like reverse loops are simple not powered in any way, and the batteries supply power, but on simple sections there is a constant voltage applied to keep the batteries charged up, allowing you to run as long as you like but still with absolutely no wiring complications. Eventually enough of the charging track might get dirty and your runs times will go down, and it's time to clean the track! --Randy
Only way Dead Rail will make signaling easy is if you can convince everyone to go back to uninsulated wheelsets like in the 3 rail days (outside or inside). Then all you have to do is detect the short, you don't even need electronics. But such rolling stock would only be usable on a dead rail system. If not, you need either pickups, or resistors across the wheels same as reagular 2 rail. If anything takes off, it will be a combination system, where any complex sections of tracks like reverse loops are simple not powered in any way, and the batteries supply power, but on simple sections there is a constant voltage applied to keep the batteries charged up, allowing you to run as long as you like but still with absolutely no wiring complications. Eventually enough of the charging track might get dirty and your runs times will go down, and it's time to clean the track!
Randy, I agree, that might well be the ultimate application of dead rail and direct radio to small scales.
NP2626 rrebell There are a number of systems out there, and a growing segment is dead rail, in HO scale. And another un-defined word just splashed up on the forum. I'll bite, what is "Dead Rail"? Sheldon, there are all sorts of people out there, who think we should all model they way they model! What a stupid point of view! So, you and I continue to be spoil sports and do it the way we want, you just have to realize that we are driving them crazy and let it go!
rrebell There are a number of systems out there, and a growing segment is dead rail, in HO scale.
There are a number of systems out there, and a growing segment is dead rail, in HO scale.
And another un-defined word just splashed up on the forum. I'll bite, what is "Dead Rail"?
Sheldon, there are all sorts of people out there, who think we should all model they way they model! What a stupid point of view! So, you and I continue to be spoil sports and do it the way we want, you just have to realize that we are driving them crazy and let it go!
Dead rail in not new or undefined - it is just new to HO.
Dead rail is no power on the track, as the name implies. Dead rail is VERY common among large scale modelers.
They use direct radio control with onboard batteries.
Batteries and direct radio recievers have now gotten small enough to allow this to at least be experimented with in HO.
Dead rail has an interesting future - no dirty track, easier detection/signaling, no under layout infrastructure to install just to move the train, etc.
Mike,
I understand what you are saying about the sound quality and agree - many can and do just "listen" past the poor quality speakers - I get it.
But I can't, it gives me a headache after about 10 minutes.
I don't use stuff like MP3's, it simply does not fit my lifestyle. I don't use computers for music or movies, the speakers on my computer are off more than they are on.
I still listen to vinyl records and music CD's through speakers that can actually reproduce the full range of the piano in my Parlor - and yes they are in BIG boxes that measure a staggering 16" x 25" x 14" and have 10" woofers - silly me.
Now I have listened to some O scale and G scale systems I could live with if I modeled in those scales - but I don't.
But most of the work in those scales does not require or use DCC.
I am very happy with my imagination when it comes to sound, NMRA standard track and wheels, original size Kadee couplers and having signaling and CTC that I can build/fix/expand no matter what products come go from the market place.
Sheldon,
I've never believed you to be an advocate of DCC/sound-related conspiracy theory, but it's a not infrequently expressed belief.
I also had another bit to add, one of the perils of insomniac posting...
You mentioned the fidedlity of sound being immaterial to you, considering it all suffers by comparison. It's probably best to think about why sound works for many. It's the same reason many in O scale ignore that odd 3rd rail in the middle of their track, why most in HO ignore those wide wheel treads, and N scalers put up with big, ugly couplers and tall rails. Sure there are workarounds for all those, but there are also legions of modelers who look right past such things and enjoy their work no matter what some see ads major deficiencies.
Sound fidelity is much the same. Some don't want anything to do with it, while others are happy with a Thomas-like chuff-chuff. Most do appreciate the differences in sound quality and some can be highly critical where the sound files fall short.
The appreciation of sound qualities is a matter of taste as much as anything. Why are people happy with MP3 sound? I don't know, but even I tolerate it as it's just easier than burning all my own files just to make a worthwhile if highly incremental upgrade.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Like you, I have broken up my replies based on available time, so here is just a little more.
I agree, there are no "anti DC conspircies" with the manufacturers (except maybe at MTH). And I'm sure DCC locos are more in demand for several simple reasons, not the least of which are two simple facts - many older DC modelers have most all they need and want - even if they were purchased as recently as the last 10-15 years - it is the newer modelers, and those who have embraced DCC and who are replacing their fleets who are buying locos. And manufacturers today are faced with serious inventory issues. Not making seperate DC versions, but rather making them easy to "back date" as Bachmann has generally done, makes more sense - I get that, and I'm fine with buying non sound DCC locos and removing decoders - they sell well on Ebay.
But to point to the latest offerings and say that proves that everyone has gone DCC, has no basis at all - the two issues are not related. Heck, I have bought 25 or more DCC locos, even a few with sound. They are not running with decoders now.........
I have always been an advocate of choice - not one system or another. In fact I bet I have said 100 times or more on this forum - "if you want onboard sound, you need DCC".
These manufacturers can barely put product in the market these days, let alone offer versions with all three choices - DC, DCC, DCC/sound - again that has little to do with how many modelers use what kind of control or why.
One last, somewhat complex thought.
My reason for my choice is a combination of labor (my time) and economics.
For me signaling and CTC are more improtant than any of the other features DCC would add.
The under layout infrastructure of DCC with signaling would take just as long to build and install as my system - I know, a number of my friends have done/are doing just that.
That under the layout infrastructure of DCC, combined with signaling by any method - solid state/computer or analog - would be similar in cost to my system, maybe a little more, but I will call that a wash.
BUT then I would have to buy and install 130 decoders - $3200 and 130 jobs I don't particularly care for - then when some of them did not run well together, I would be speed matching/adjusting CV's......more stuff I have done and don't enjoy - end of story.
Mike, I agree it is a small layout/lone operator product, I just think that market is bigger than many think.
I have always said a whole room full of different sound locos is a disaster - at least for me.
I agree and understand that different locos sound different, but I just don't see the point when the fidelity is so poor. In the HiFi music world speakers are judged by how long people can listen before they become "tired" of the sound - for me HO onboard sound lasts about 10 minutes.
Still I suspect this product is a result of the fact that the DC market remains larger than many want to believe - even in HO or N.
More thoughts...
Sheldon wrote:
To assume that every modeler, young or old, new or experianced, will progress in the hobby in the same way with same interests has no basis in fact. So to see this product as just an "entry level" or "bridge" product in incorrect in my opinion.
I think it's less an entry level or bridge product than a "good enough" product. You get power and sound in one box. In many ways, it duplicates what is available on the typical DCC/sound loco, but can easily be reassigned to another loco at any time. If one is a lone wolf operator, it could work well. If you have a 6- or 8-cab layout and give everyone one of them, it'd be a cacophony. I just don't see it , except for maybe one cab, on a layout like yours.
I think a good layout based sound system with generic steam and diesel sounds would be more effective than worring about the difference in sounds between an ALCO and a EMD when it then gets played through a 1" speaker.
That could save you some money with a system like this. Just use the sound card that comes with it, good for everything from a Plymouth diesel on up. No need to buy extra cards.
For the average sound buff, there's a heck of a difference between an ALCO and GE, though. Long before I got interested in sound on the layout, I knew about the differences, mostly because we used to have a RS-2 call on the mill and quarry right across the street, plus the Monon had more Alco and GE out on the main. Seeing the obviously right loco putting out obviously erroneous sounds would be very distracting.
The usuall quote mechanism is on holiday or something, so bear with my quotes....
Everytime DC vs DCC comes up on this forum, there is a vocal group who "swear" that nearly every "serious" modeler has gone DCC and that every new modeler wil go DCC.
This despite the replies from those who do not use DCC?
I will be the first to admit, that if you narrow your critera to HO modelers who are interested in group operationing sessions and have moderate to large layouts, DCC useage is likey 85% or higher amoung that group.
That is a pretty narrow definition of Model Railroading. DCC is not hardly on the radar in any of the larger scales.
Yeah, I don't know about these vocal groups. There are individuals who clearly are on one side or the other -- or feel that they should take sides. I really don't have a dog in this fight, because I can see doing either under some circumstances.
There is another way to look at how this breaks down as far as manufacturers are concerned. They're here to sell locos and it's clear from the offerings that DC only locos are fading in terms of sales. The only plausible reason for them not making DC versions is they simply aren't selling enough of them to make it financially viable. I discount the conspiracy theories I hear that consumers are being "forced" to adopt DCC. I also suspect that those who've embraced DCC buy a LOT of locomotives compared to ordinary folks in the hobby. That further skews sales numbers in favor of DCC. It's not so much how many people who've chosen DDC as it is the number of units sold to them that drives the market.
Of course, we're talking HO here, not N, where Katos sales in the US are concentrated and generally not the larger scales as you've noted. I think the issue of getting DCC/sound into N scale is what drove this decision. They sell relatively little HO and nothing in scales other than it and HO.
Considering the relatively small samples this forum represents, a rather high percentage has spoken up to say that they are lone operators, and that they prefer it that way, and that they have little or no interest in sound. Making the features of DCC of little interest to them.
True, but DCC is in some senses a lot like computers. There's all kinds of programs on your computer you likely never use. Should they be deleted because they are of little interest? Probably not.
And just to use one example, based on his knowledge and the photos of his work offered on this forum, I don't think we could suggest that Dr Wayne is just some guy dabbling with a train set.........
My experiance of 40 years in this hobby, and many behind the counter of a hobby shop, suggests to me that there are a lot more Dr Wayne's and Sheldon's out there then many on here would believe.
Dr Waynes, yes, but Sheldons? Not so much. I see little evidence of large multi-cab DC systems being constructed. I suspect most people weigh the pros and cons and end up choosing DCC in planning them.
Fundamentally, the sort of self-reporting/advocacy we see here in the forums is almost wholly anecdotal, a very non-scientific sample. Lots of passion by those involved, but I suspect the large number of choices made have to do less with the features of either and more to do with finances.
AND, clearly KATO thinks there is a DC market of people interested in some sort of sound experiance, and that market may not be reached by onboard sound and "control boxes", and that such a market has enough of a future to invest in this kind of product developemement.
Well, maybe. What if Kato's decision was about preserving the erosion of its market share to HO scale sound? That's a possibility. It's a difference that's hearable. Sound can also take up a lot of space dedicated to weight previously. So some of the same issues that came in DCC and sound still exist.
Got a few more comments, will try to get back to them shortly.
mlehman ATLANTIC CENTRAL But it rasies the question, that possibly these yet untapped market segments are larger than some like to assume? I'm not so sure. I first heard a SurroundTraxx demo at either the 98 Nati'l Narrow Gauge Convention in Colo. Springs or the 2000 in St. Louis. It's oriented toward adding sounds to a DCC layout. The new product with Kato is for adding sound to DC locos. There's a lot more DC overseas still and having an international partner to strengthen distribution can help the folks in Durango. I suspect that there will alwasy be a certain segment that hasn't made up its mind about some things, but the potential customer base for Surroundtraxx is fading as most factory decoder installs now include sound and most decoders and speakers can fit in small engines, the two big problems that Surroundtrax was the answer to. The Kato sound box is for the DC market. Sure it's shrinking slowly, but that particular decision, DC or DCC, still happens a lot.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But it rasies the question, that possibly these yet untapped market segments are larger than some like to assume?
I'm not so sure. I first heard a SurroundTraxx demo at either the 98 Nati'l Narrow Gauge Convention in Colo. Springs or the 2000 in St. Louis. It's oriented toward adding sounds to a DCC layout.
The new product with Kato is for adding sound to DC locos. There's a lot more DC overseas still and having an international partner to strengthen distribution can help the folks in Durango.
I suspect that there will alwasy be a certain segment that hasn't made up its mind about some things, but the potential customer base for Surroundtraxx is fading as most factory decoder installs now include sound and most decoders and speakers can fit in small engines, the two big problems that Surroundtrax was the answer to.
The Kato sound box is for the DC market. Sure it's shrinking slowly, but that particular decision, DC or DCC, still happens a lot.
I will repeat my dislike for onboard sound in small scales - it sounds like static, like unpluging the woofers on my HiFi speakers then listening to my favorite music - I would rather not hear it all in that case.
I know for some it reinforces their "imagination" - my imagination does better without the distraction of chaos - I'm an introvert who likes my piece and quiet.
Good layout based sound is an idea that I have always had some interest in. Personally, I think a good layout based sound system with generic steam and diesel sounds would be more effective than worring about the difference in sounds between an ALCO and a EMD when it then gets played through a 1" speaker.
BUT, we all have different interests and goals in this hobby - today more than ever. I fact marked by my own retreat from a number of social aspects of the hobby to focus more on what I really like about it - building stuff.
Station announcements, like MTH DCS. Uh oh, Kato and Soundtraxx better watch out, MTH may sue them for that.
Surroundtrax is a much more sophisticated mixing system, at least that's what it seems to be - so that when you have multiple locos on thelayout, the sounds are coming from speakers near their respective loco. This unit is more along the lines of being the engineer and having sound in you 'cab'.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I am not promoting or detracting sound, I just find it interesting that if DCC is as "universal" as is often touted on this forum, that a manufacturer would spend this kind of money on a "DC" product.
I am not promoting or detracting sound, I just find it interesting that if DCC is as "universal" as is often touted on this forum, that a manufacturer would spend this kind of money on a "DC" product.
richhotrain Wait a minute. I think something is wrong with my computer. I never thought that I would live long enough to see the day that the Sheldon would start a thread promoting sound on a layout. Is this the same Sheldon who buys a sound equpped DCC locomotive only to remove the sound decoder and smash it to smithereens with a sledge hammer ??? My, my, my. Rich
Wait a minute. I think something is wrong with my computer.
I never thought that I would live long enough to see the day that the Sheldon would start a thread promoting sound on a layout.
Is this the same Sheldon who buys a sound equpped DCC locomotive only to remove the sound decoder and smash it to smithereens with a sledge hammer ???
My, my, my.
Rich,
That said, I have always said I like sound in larger scales, and have also expressed an interest in layout based sound systems.
HiFi and speaker design are one of my other hobbies - ONBOARD sound in HO or N scale simply is unacceptable to me based on sound quality. Two 1" speakers are just TOO small for the job in my view. They all sound like a 1968 9 transistor pocket radio to me.
Something with an 8 or 10 woofer under the layout..........
But even that is not a necessity or priority for my modeling.