I'm going to start blaming you guys for encouraging me . . .
Okay, so I had the tender apart for my NJCB LV N-1 camelback, so once that was back together I figured I'd take the loco out for a dc test drive before putting it back in the box. This is one of the older ones that I've had for quite a long while, so I don't exactly remember when was the last time I had it out on a piece of track and running.
Hook up the track to power--hear the motor spinning inside but nothing in terms of wheel movement. Tear it all apart (this one was slightly more tricky to dissemble than the Alco Erie, but I figured it out eventually) and get the power chassis on the bench.
Test the motor again, spinning fine, no connection in the gearbox. Gearbox has a great big crack along the top edge that I figure can't be the original design (or is it?).
Get the motor detached and the gearbox unscrewed. Another chunk of the gearbox breaks off from light finger pressure while holding it as I'm unscrewing it. That can't be a good sign.
Photos below--the gearbox is pretty much shot inside, not sure I'd get it back together again in one piece even if I tried.
So . . . what next? is it likely that I'll be able to find a full replacement KSM gearbox cover and be able to reuse the existing gears? or do I have to figure something else out? HELP!
I blame you guys.
See if you can find the original part number. Put that and the manufacturer into Google or eBay search and see what comes up. Alternately, take a look at other gearboxes and see if you can adapt it to fit.
But, welcome to the real world of model railroading. Fabricating parts for things that are no longer made is a skill to be learned. Hey, the prototypes used to do it all the time back in the steam era.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Contact NorthWest Short Line. They make gearboxes for all sorts of applications and may have one specifically for that locomotive or one which will work with little or no modifications.
nwsl
Wayne
thanks guys. I've got the NWSL chapter on gears and gearboxes downloaded and will try to make my way through that to learn more about regearing this if it comes down to that. Wayne, I took your advice and sent a query into NWSL about a replacement box. I also ran the motor again and there's a bit of wobble in the driveshaft coming out of the motor, so I'm not too crazy about that either. I may try to do a bit more work on the whole driveline to improve things while it's all opened up.
Yeah, if the casing is cracked, then it's for the junk pile, lathough it may have parts worth salvaging.
For a commerical replacement there are NWSL and PSC in the US. My guess is the British have something to offer, but someone with greater knowledge should suggest what might work. In Australia, Hollywood Foundry offers several options (look down the page), but are somewhat different than ours.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
okay, here's where we stand. I don't know if any of you are on the 'Brass Backshop' group on facebook, but I spent the afternoon getting tutored by a couple of very nice folks there on the ins and outs and whatfors of regearing this thing. Also was in touch with Dave at NWSL who sent me back a nice response telling me exactly which two gearbox options would work with this loco. After some more back and forth with the folks on fb, I decided to get the PSC self-contained gearbox made by Boo-Rim.
I did make one more attempt to clean the gearbox and reassemble to see if it would do for now, but the gears didn't mesh at all and the pot metal box broke another huge chunk out of the top of it, rendering it now completely useless. oh well.
At this point, I take it the next step will be learning how to install the gear on the driver axle? any thoughts on where to get a lesson about that? and hints about minimizing the cost of the tools I'll need to do it right . . .
You have to change the gear on the drive axle ? That's not something you do with a pair of vice grips and a large hammer !
You will need a wheel puller to get at least one wheel off the axle along with the gear. You will then need a press of some sort to put on the gear and replace the wheel. Lastly, the wheels on the axle need to be in PERFECT quarter to each other, else your drive will bind.
Instead of investing in all the assorted tools to do this one installation, I would suggest sending your drive axle to NWSL and have them do the conversion. They are pretty reasonable to do thing kind of work and they have the tools to do it right. Saves you the head-aches.
Get it back from them, drop it in and go.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Mark R. You have to change the gear on the drive axle ? That's not something you do with a pair of vice grips and a large hammer ! You will need a wheel puller to get at least one wheel off the axle along with the gear. You will then need a press of some sort to put on the gear and replace the wheel. Lastly, the wheels on the axle need to be in PERFECT quarter to each other, else your drive will bind. Instead of investing in all the assorted tools to do this one installation, I would suggest sending your drive axle to NWSL and have them do the conversion. They are pretty reasonable to do thing kind of work and they have the tools to do it right. Saves you the head-aches. Get it back from them, drop it in and go. Mark.
well, that's a good point Mark, although I have to admit I'm a bit of a tool hound. If we were talking just this one locomotive, I'd probably do just that--but I've got another 5 or 6 that I suspect would benefit from the same treatment. PLUS . . . there's always the non-operational 'junker' brass on ebay that I would love to buy if the stuff just worked. If I get any good at this, it opens up a whole new realm of possibilities.
Actually, though, it looks like the press is the biggest tool expense. Any recommendations there? I've got a handful of reloading presses for example, and know that there are significant design differences between them, and also quality differences too. So does a specialized hobby press make sense, e.g. the NWSL press? or would a cheaper more basic one work just as well?
I may still opt to do what you suggest though, I was really impressed with how responsive Dave Rygmyr was today from NWSL. I didn't think to ask him about the possibility of them doing the conversion, so I might send him off another email tomorrow to inquire about that.
okay, here's where this project stands at the moment. I ended up with the PSC/Boo-Rim gearbox and have the new axle mounted to the driver and with luck, have it properly re-quartered and working properly. In the photo below, everything is put back just enough to test the fit of the new gearbox to the motor.
Hoping to use the same motor mount, but looks like I have to cut almost ALL of the drive shaft coming out of the gearbox. That's not going to leave much room for error if I cut wrong. I'm planning on the universal coupling you already see on the motor shaft and a 2.4mm ball mounted directly on the drive shaft coming out of the gearbox. Does that make sense? and does that seem like a good plan? I still have the old rubber coupling, that might leave a bit more room for error.
At any rate, what do you guys think, is this looking like it should work, or am I making any mistakes that I should know about? as always, thanks for your help.
I love it. It seems that you, sir, are a real model railroader. There was a time when real men worked in roundhouses in the dead of winter to get an engine back on the tracks the next day. No Internet, no 2-Day-Shipping. You had what you had, your tools and your shop, and that was it.
I salute you.
MisterBeasley I love it. It seems that you, sir, are a real model railroader. There was a time when real men worked in roundhouses in the dead of winter to get an engine back on the tracks the next day. No Internet, no 2-Day-Shipping. You had what you had, your tools and your shop, and that was it. I salute you.
lol. thanks Mister B, but we're not out of the woods yet. I put the drivers back on and reassembled the valve gear to see how smoothly the wheels would roll, and turns out I'm going to have to try again. The drivers don't quite line up, it binds pretty good. Decided at that point to quit while I was ahead, I ran out of steam (so to speak) tonight. So I will pull all of them out tomorrow and requarter them all the same way, I had tried to cheat it a bit by doing just the one geared axle and hoping it would work.
But the good news is that I think I've got the motor basically roughed in, and things look there like they will line up. Here's a question: The PSC gearbox has a cast tab at the base that faces the motor, and the motor mount is a piece of brass strip that will have to go under the gearbox tab--any ideas on whether I should connect those, or is it ok to leave the motor mount 'floating' under the gearbox? (You can see in the photo below I have temporarily bent the motor mount down to fit underneath the gearbox tab.) I'm assuming I should fasten the two together somehow, seeing as how the motor was screwed directly into the back of the previous gearbox, which kept everything nice and stable I imagine. Any ideas for that?
JimTSo I will pull all of them out tomorrow and requarter them all the same way, I had tried to cheat it a bit by doing just the one geared axle and hoping it would work.
I don't claim to know anything about steam loco driver quartering. But it seems to me that if I only took one set of drivers apart I would concentrate on getting that set re-quartered. I would not take the other three sets apart to try to correct a potentially non-existent problem. Sounds like opening up a can of worms.
Out of curiosity, did the loco roll okay before you took apart that one set of drivers?
yep, it rolled just fine--when I took the original gearbox out, everything rolled very smoothly. I think you're also probably right about just trying to get the one driver quartered evenly with the other three--and it's not off by much. I may be able to eyeball it a bit as well, maybe I'll try scribing the axle to the wheel and just nudging it a bit more in the right direction.
It's easy to see the third axle is not aligned the same as one, two and four. Don't touch the three originals, they are obviously fine as they are. Actually, I'm surprised you were actually able to get the side rods on with it being that far out !
Is the axle splined ? - or smooth ? If they are splined, don't try to rotate the wheel on the axle. Mark the wheel / axle position so you know where you started and rotate it one spline at a time.
To verify exact quartering, place the wheel set on a piece of glass. Using a true 90 degree tool, align the rod hole with the axle center perfectly vertical on one side. The other side should be perfectly horizontal from the rod hole through the axle center - either forward or rearward to match those on the engine.
Once the axle itself is perfectly quartered, install the drive set and rotate the axle so it perfectly matches the other three.
Mark R. It's easy to see the third axle is not aligned the same as one, two and four. Don't touch the three originals, they are obviously fine as they are. Actually, I'm surprised you were actually able to get the side rods on with it being that far out ! Is the axle splined ? - or smooth ? If they are splined, don't try to rotate the wheel on the axle. Mark the wheel / axle position so you know where you started and rotate it one spline at a time. To verify exact quartering, place the wheel set on a piece of glass. Using a true 90 degree tool, align the rod hole with the axle center perfectly vertical on one side. The other side should be perfectly horizontal from the rod hole through the axle center - either forward or rearward to match those on the engine. Once the axle itself is perfectly quartered, install the drive set and rotate the axle so it perfectly matches the other three. Mark.
Mark, thanks for this, very helpful. The axles are smooth, not splined. Because I'm using the PSC box, I had to remove both drivers from the original axle to put on the PSC geared axle, which was straightforward enough, I just got it wrong. First time using the quartering tool, I don't think I missed by very much, the wheels rotate just about 3/4 of the way around before they stick.
I'll try using the piece of glass, I've got a mini machinist's square that should do the trick.
any thoughts about anchoring the gearbox and/or connecting it to the motor mount?
I'm not sure about snowball effect or spring - I try to work on my trains all year round. Where I live, summers can be brutally hot and humid and the basement is the coolest part of the house!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
If possible, it's a good idea to attach the motor torque arm to the gear-box. The gearbox will rock front to rear if it's not anchored to something and that could potentially cause your ball and cup to dis-engage. This was not a problem with the old flex tube that held the two shafts together as it not only connected the two shafts together for rotational force (which your ball and cup do) but also connected them from separating from each other in a pulling force (which your ball and cup don't do.
The proper way to do it is to mount the motor solid to the chassis, then an additional torque arm is connected from the motor to the gearbox to keep them aligned. If you just mount the motor to the torque arm bracket, the motor will float with the gearbox.
Mark R. If possible, it's a good idea to attach the motor torque arm to the gear-box. The gearbox will rock front to rear if it's not anchored to something and that could potentially cause your ball and cup to dis-engage. This was not a problem with the old flex tube that held the two shafts together as it not only connected the two shafts together for rotational force (which your ball and cup do) but also connected them from separating from each other in a pulling force (which your ball and cup don't do. The proper way to do it is to mount the motor solid to the chassis, then an additional torque arm is connected from the motor to the gearbox to keep them aligned. If you just mount the motor to the torque arm bracket, the motor will float with the gearbox. Mark.
Mark, once again I appreciate your guidance and thoughts on this. I've gotten the drivers on the new geared axle re-mounted, and here's what it looks like below. This is just a roughed-in test; none of the driver springs are in place. There is still a slight hiccup somewhere but I will worry about that once I've got the motor mount and torque arm figured out. I didn't lube anything or polish any of the pivot points, etc. Any hints about "super fine-tuning" the valve gear are certainly welcome.
I'll try to take a pic of the torque arm bracket on the gearbox, the holes are enormous so I'm not sure what method of attachment might make sense; the front of the can motor is already tapped with two motor mount holes that aren't being used for anything.
here's a couple of pics for where I'm thinking the motor mount bracket could go--I've mocked it up in styrene at the bottom, I don't have any sheet stock but can get some tomorrow, then I can solder it on. I figure I will tap it for screws from above.
The holes on the torque arm bracket are there (second pic), but they are huge and also pretty much under the driveline. Should I use those somehow or drill and tap smaller holes on the top or back of the gearbox for the torque arm? I'm kind of stumped on that issue and could use some pointers.
A few steps may be a little late, but there's some good reading here ....
http://shastasprings.com/repower/guide_to_repowering_and_regearing.htm
Mark R. A few steps may be a little late, but there's some good reading here .... http://shastasprings.com/repower/guide_to_repowering_and_regearing.htm Mark.
Mark, that's a great site. Not sure if I would have understood half of it prior to starting this project; but now with a bit of trial-and-error under my belt, it is a great resource to have. The link to the Nov. 1980 article in MR on torque arms is very helpful--there's a drawing there that simplifies what I may be able to do here. Plus the use of angle brass, I hadn't thought of that--I have not worked much with brass at all.
At any rate, thanks for that link. When I get everything assembled I'll post a video of it under power. Of course now I'm going to want to move on to a sound decoder installation and the whole nine yards . . . . But let's see if it runs first.
by the way, I figured out where the hiccup was. I re-installed the driver springs in case that was where the problem was and to make sure the wheels would roll smoothly. New hiccup: I spent fifteen minutes trying to figure out why it was rolling perfectly going forward but binding on every fourth or fifth rotation going backwards. Looking at it from both sides, at eye level, nothing, couldn't figure it out. Then I happened to look at it from above for the half-dozenth time . . . I had assembled the side rods wrong on one side. Got those in proper order, and voila. Runs smoothly now. Rookie mistakes. They are a definite time sink. ;-)actually, you can see what I did in the four photos I posted earlier--on the rods on the bottom, you can see I had assembled the rod from the rear driver in the wrong order. oh well.
Final hiccup-free driver and valve gear test:
alright, here's what it looks like semi-assembled. I ended up temporarily attaching the motor mount to the gearbox bracket with a 2-56 screw and nut, if it stays put I may leave it that way. You may notice the lead tender truck's wheels are up in the air--I fiddled with that for a half hour or maybe more, any hints on how to make the tender trucks behave?
on edit: I took a photo of the tender straight on from the front and realized the sideframes seemed to be pinching the wheelsets. Took the truck off, bent the sideframes out a bit, flattened the bolster a bit more (there *might* have been ever so slight a hump to the bolster), and reassembled; it seems to run more smoothly now.
one final followup post for this loco, here's a video with the boiler reattached. There is an intermittent short somewhere but frankly, I ran out of steam (so to speak) to analyze where the problem is. Still mulling over the sound/dcc installation on this one, next time I have it apart I'll have to figure out where the short is happening. But for now it's back together again and operational. It's on to the next project.