Hi again,
well, I was minding my own business and slowly redoing the electrical conversion of my old layout to dcc, when I went home for lunch and also to pick up a new acquisition that arrived in the mail.
Was eager to test drive it on the bench but got nothing in terms of electrical contact--nothing, not even a budge. Tore it all down and, lo and behold, the motor wire from the tender had snapped off entirely and was floating around inside the loco. (Clearly it had chosen to do so while being shipped.)
Anyway, now that I have this thing open, should I just go ahead and do a decoder install? I ask in part because this would be my first steam install, and honestly am looking for advice on what to look out for and/or what to be aware of. Second question is: should I go all out and do a sound install? Even more clueless (relatively speaking) about where to begin, although I have some ideas and have been reading up on the subject these past few weeks.
This is an Erie R1 put out by Alco Models in the 70s. Any advice or words of wisdom? thanks!!
Jim
Well, you could have picked a harder one to convert. For a brass steamer, that one should be insanely easy - the motor is a can motor so the current level should be find (check in to be sure), and the motor is already isolated. What's the tender look like as far as space goes? Since the moto is isolated, it's mostly just n issue of stringing wires between the tender and loco so you can take it apart. Only needs 5 wires, although adding some sort of pickup wipers to the loco for the insulated side will improve performance (need them on the tender trucks too). It will run with the split pickup just fine. 2 motor wires, 2 headlight wires, and the loco side pickup back to the tender. Don't let the tender trucks get turned around or it will short through the tender, or if both of them get reversed, it will short through the drawbar.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Well, you could have picked a harder one to convert. For a brass steamer, that one should be insanely easy - the motor is a can motor so the current level should be find (check in to be sure), and the motor is already isolated. What's the tender look like as far as space goes? Since the moto is isolated, it's mostly just n issue of stringing wires between the tender and loco so you can take it apart. Only needs 5 wires, although adding some sort of pickup wipers to the loco for the insulated side will improve performance (need them on the tender trucks too). It will run with the split pickup just fine. 2 motor wires, 2 headlight wires, and the loco side pickup back to the tender. Don't let the tender trucks get turned around or it will short through the tender, or if both of them get reversed, it will short through the drawbar. --Randy
well that's good to hear. Just to see how the motor does, I jerry-rigged my connection to the tender. There were a couple of plastic threaded washers/bushings that just disintegrated when I tried to screw them back in, so I temporarily insulated the tender pickup from the frame with kapton tape, seems to work for now, but I will have to figure out a permanent solution. Maybe I should be thinking of some kind of micro connector from the tender to the locomotive to avoid having to route the power through the drawbar? [on edit: I just realized you said that! I'm a bit slow on reading comprehension today. ] anyway, I shot 10 or 15 seconds of video, as soon as that's uploaded you can get a look at the tender. Not as big as most, although certainly plenty of room under a coal load I should think.
here's the video, sorry I dropped the phone at the end.
Looks pretty smooth, unless you had to crank the power all the way to make it move. Some cleaning and a little oiling and it should be a good runner. Alco models made pretty solid products. My one and only brass loco is an Alco Models RS3. Now, you want to talk mess - one of the previous owners converted it to a can motor, but did a real sloppy job rigging up a drive line. I got it to run ok temporarily by replacing the whole messed up drive line with a piece of model airplane fuel tube. The other side isn't too bad, standard Athearn BB parts. When I got it, I tried it on DC and it didn't go anywhere. So I opened it up and it had a decoder in, an old Digitrax DH121. It's painted, but the paint is scratched off in places and the decals are horrible, so I am going to repaint it. After I fix up the driveline properly. And then I will put sound in it. I can't compain too much, I found the Alco Models add in an old MR when they first offered it, and I only paid what it originally sold for in the early 70's.
Hi, Jim
There is a recent article in the Feb. issue of MRH magazine* (p. 45) about adding DCC to brass steam. I believe MR has covered the subject in past issues as well.
I have done several and there are only a few sticky points to remember.
Be sure the tender will not short to the cab and be sure you get the insulated side of the wheels back in proper orientation. Sometimes mounting a headlight can be a pain if it has not been drilled out to accept wiring.
Keep on the lookout for other places, like where a truck sideframe might touch the center sill or a pilot wheel might touch the frame. These are potential shorts. Sometimes a small piece of Kapton tape will provide enough to insulate these areas.
[edit] The coal bunker would be about the only place you could put the speaker on the Vanderbilt tender. I have some B&O engines with the same type tender so a speaker will have to go there since I have no intention to drill through the bottom of the tank.
* I hope our hosts don't mind
Good luck, Ed
rrinker Looks pretty smooth, unless you had to crank the power all the way to make it move. Some cleaning and a little oiling and it should be a good runner. Alco models made pretty solid products. My one and only brass loco is an Alco Models RS3. Now, you want to talk mess - one of the previous owners converted it to a can motor, but did a real sloppy job rigging up a drive line. I got it to run ok temporarily by replacing the whole messed up drive line with a piece of model airplane fuel tube. The other side isn't too bad, standard Athearn BB parts. When I got it, I tried it on DC and it didn't go anywhere. So I opened it up and it had a decoder in, an old Digitrax DH121. It's painted, but the paint is scratched off in places and the decals are horrible, so I am going to repaint it. After I fix up the driveline properly. And then I will put sound in it. I can't compain too much, I found the Alco Models add in an old MR when they first offered it, and I only paid what it originally sold for in the early 70's. --Randy
nope, that was on zero throttle--the reason I dropped the phone is because my 40+ year old dc MRC Twinpower doesn't turn the juice completely off when you throttle down to zero, so I had to hit the on-off master switch. So it will have excellent low speed response just the way it is.
so what are your thoughts about decoder selection? and should I go for a sound install? the other thing that might be helpful is if you or anyone else knows of a good step-by-step online photo or video installation that I could follow along with for the first time. I'll do some digging, but just in case anyone knows of a specific one that they found helpful . . .
I went ahead and put the body back on and screwed it back together. Didn't want to lose any of those tiny little screws on the workbench, plus I'll stow it away back in the box until I've got my dcc materials together. here's what it looks like, nice looking engine I think.
gmpullman Hi, Jim There is a recent article in the Feb. issue of MRH magazine* (p. 45) about adding DCC to brass steam. I believe MR has covered the subject in past issues as well. I have done several and there are only a few sticky points to remember. Be sure the tender will not short to the cab and be sure you get the insulated side of the wheels back in proper orientation. Sometimes mounting a headlight can be a pain if it has not been drilled out to accept wiring. Keep on the lookout for other places, like where a truck sideframe might touch the center sill or a pilot wheel might touch the frame. These are potential shorts. Sometimes a small piece of Kapton tape will provide enough to insulate these areas. * I hope our hosts don't mind Good luck, Ed
ha!! thanks Ed, you and I must have been writing at the same time--thanks for the reference to the article in MRH, I'll definitely take a look at that tonight. I think the kapton tape trick is okay for a temporary insulator, but I'm nervous on a steam loco that there's too much movement--have you ever used liquid electrical tape or something like that? this is kind of a new area for me, the club I belonged to years ago had a member who kept all our stuff running, but again, it's much easier to learn this stuff now with all the information available online.
I have to mention re truck sideframes and insulated tender wheels--when I put the loco back together I did in fact install the trailing truck UPSIDE DOWN . . . call it a rookie mistake. I figured that one out pretty quickly though.
thanks again for the heads up about that article on MRH, and I'll do some searches here and in MR.
JimTI think the kapton tape trick is okay for a temporary insulator, but I'm nervous on a steam loco that there's too much movement
Jim,
I have a W&R brass NYC 0-8-0 that has kapton tape on the underside of the cab apron (deck plate) this was factory applied.
That tape is pretty tough, on a par with mylar—hey, that rhymes anyway, I think the kapton will stand up to some pretty tough abuse. If you ever see it wearing out, just stick a new piece on.
The only other stuff I have found that is almost as tough is audio splicing tape which I think is mylar but it is white and tougher to hide.
I don't believe the brush-on electrical tape is any where as abrasion resistant as kapton tape, I have heard some folks have good results with nail polish which I guess you could get in black. You might get a few odd looks if you ask for it at a store, though!
Keep us posted on your progress, Ed
Kapton will handle a good bit of running, unless the piece doing the rubbing has a sharp edge on it. Liquid electrical tape won;t work worth a darn. Nail polish or clear laquer somewhere in between I'd think.
A deck apron needs either some insulation ir it needs to not actually touch the opposite side. The drawpar, the best thing you can do there, if you go DCC and put in a multi-pin connector for the wiring between the loco and tender, is to replace the metal one with a plastic drawbar, then it is for sure insulated. Or 'gap' the existing one - take a chunk out of the middle and then attach to two ends to a short piece of plastic. This way there's no way to have an intermittant short as the drawbar shifts in the holes or the insualtion wears away. Some newer brass has a nylon insert for the drawbar rather than just fiber washers, those hold up much better.
rrinker Kapton will handle a good bit of running, unless the piece doing the rubbing has a sharp edge on it. Liquid electrical tape won;t work worth a darn. Nail polish or clear laquer somewhere in between I'd think. A deck apron needs either some insulation ir it needs to not actually touch the opposite side. The drawpar, the best thing you can do there, if you go DCC and put in a multi-pin connector for the wiring between the loco and tender, is to replace the metal one with a plastic drawbar, then it is for sure insulated. Or 'gap' the existing one - take a chunk out of the middle and then attach to two ends to a short piece of plastic. This way there's no way to have an intermittant short as the drawbar shifts in the holes or the insualtion wears away. Some newer brass has a nylon insert for the drawbar rather than just fiber washers, those hold up much better. --Randy
thanks to both of you re the kapton tape and its durability. Now that I think about it, I believe my one brass loco that has sound (bought it that way, I think Tony's did the conversion for the previous owner) has kapton under the deck plate there--I should get it out and examine how they did it.
I like the idea of the plastic drawbar; honestly the drawbar and the post seem to be the weakest link on this Erie loco at the moment.
I did look at the MRH article, really good stuff. But some of the reader comments about Vandy tenders made me nervous. What's the argument for putting all the decoder stuff in the tank versus under a coal load? the bottom of the tender isn't drilled for sound nor is there really a flat framed bottom that would lend itself to drilling. here's a pic (with apologies to brasstrains.com, I stole this pic as I stowed mine away back in the box already).
One recommendation I would make would be to use a stay-alive module with whatever decoder you are going to use. When I used to convert brass steam to DCC, I would go through all the trouble of adding additional wheel contacts to all the insulated wheels on both the engine and the tender. Adding the stay-alive module has eliminated that need entirely, and they will crawl through a maze of turnouts without hesitation.
If you are leaning towards sound, the TCS Wow decoders can be purchased with their stay-alive module as an integrated part of the decoder.
Mark.
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Mark R. One recommendation I would make would be to use a stay-alive module with whatever decoder you are going to use. When I used to convert brass steam to DCC, I would go through all the trouble of adding additional wheel contacts to all the insulated wheels on both the engine and the tender. Adding the stay-alive module has eliminated that need entirely, and they will crawl through a maze of turnouts without hesitation. If you are leaning towards sound, the TCS Wow decoders can be purchased with their stay-alive module as an integrated part of the decoder. Mark.
Mark, thanks for this advice, I just spent the last half hour or so listening to the WOW decoder on some youtube videos, really impressive. I'm kind of thinking I may try it out on this loco and cut my teeth on this one before moving on to my older locos that I care more about. I also like the idea of the stay-alive feature and would like to not have to add extra wheel contacts if I can help it.
So help me with my potential shopping list here, assuming going with the WOW sound . . . I assume it's better to go with the 21 pin decoder to allow for future functions? or stick with the 9 pin?
Then the Keep Alive device: probably the KA2 which can go up to 15 seconds off-power? and with or without the 2pin connector? I don't mind soldering, but is the 2pin connector helpful?
Speaker choices? assuming the Vandy tender coal load installation--stick with the TCS speakers? or something else? and size considerations: TCS has round and oval WOW speakers, 20mm, 28mm, or 35mm sizes. here's a pic of the inside of the tender (apologies/thanks again to brasstrains).
Wiring harness suggestions? and what kind of connector between the engine and tender?
sorry for all the questions but thanks for all your help!!
Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
just wondering if I'm on the right track, would hate to buy stuff that's not exactly right. also curious about what might fit at the bottom of the tender. anyway, thanks again.
Hmm, just got tougher. I was thinking there would be access to the water portion of the thender, in which case the decoder would go in there, and the coal area would house the speaker and enclosure. You need a caliper to measure the space and then compare to the listed dimensions for the decoder - I don't think a Wowsound plus KA2 plus speaker plus decent enclosure will fit in there.
As for wires, you need at least 5 - 2 for motor, 2 for headlight, and 1 for the loco pickup.
I've only done seven brass steam sound conversions and in all of them, I used a Loksound Micro decoder and a 16mm round speaker and placed them both in the boiler. I prefer the speaker to be in the boiler because, well, that's where the sound should be coming from - not the tender.
Steam engines don't require as much sound in the lower octaves like a diesel, so a quality small speaker (sugar cube speaker would be ideal) will produce the mid to upper octaves just fine.
That arrangement also cut down the number of wires between engine and tender to just two - the left and right pick-up from the tender.
rrinker Hmm, just got tougher. I was thinking there would be access to the water portion of the thender, in which case the decoder would go in there, and the coal area would house the speaker and enclosure. You need a caliper to measure the space and then compare to the listed dimensions for the decoder - I don't think a Wowsound plus KA2 plus speaker plus decent enclosure will fit in there. As for wires, you need at least 5 - 2 for motor, 2 for headlight, and 1 for the loco pickup. --Randy
Took the measurements, the flat base/floor of the coal bin is 1" x 1.4", and there is .9" depth before hitting the bottom lip of the sloped upper rim. The opening on top is 1.25" x 1.75".
Mark R. I've only done seven brass steam sound conversions and in all of them, I used a Loksound Micro decoder and a 16mm round speaker and placed them both in the boiler. I prefer the speaker to be in the boiler because, well, that's where the sound should be coming from - not the tender. Steam engines don't require as much sound in the lower octaves like a diesel, so a quality small speaker (sugar cube speaker would be ideal) will produce the mid to upper octaves just fine. That arrangement also cut down the number of wires between engine and tender to just two - the left and right pick-up from the tender. Mark.
Mark, I like this point very much, only there is a huge weight filling the boiler under the stack and steamd and sand domes, so it's almost like I'd have to figure out how to suspend the decoder and speaker over the driveshaft? All else being equal, I'd probably prefer not to have to mill out the space from the weight on my very first steam install. But I do like the idea of trying to put the dcc stuff in the boiler.
well, of course the "third way" thinking approach might be to simply try another engine. I've got a couple of candidates, including an Oriental Limited Powerhouse Mikado that's got a nice big tender, or one of my LV camelbacks. Or is that just chickening out?
As for speakers I like the Soundtraxx mega bass and I also like the Railmaster hobbies speakers (http://www.railmasterhobbies.com/) and enclosures. I would still do a stall current test to make sure that the can is behaving itself. No disrespect to Mark (who has much more experience at this than I) but I have found extra wipers to be necessary even with a keep alive, especially in small brass. Given the size of this loco, you may be able to avoid extra pick up.
For step by step help, check out the info by Mark Schutzer. Look in the clinics section on his site. Here is a link: http://markschutzer.com/
Looking at your vandy tender I would say you may have to grind a hole in the water tank side of the sloped bunker wall to open up the area in the cylinder for the decoder and the keep alive (or the wow with keep alive installed). I can’t tell the dimensions in the photo but it doesn’t look like you have a dimension that will be long enough without the hole. BTW: Most of the guys I know who are doing brass installs in HO put the decoders and speakers in the tender due to space constraints in the locomotive.
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
trainnut1250 Jim, Another opinion: I would go with a Tsunami over the WOW because the tsunami is easier to program and offers more control over all of the sound volumes. Personally I like to hardwire the connections between the tender and loco as the connectors take up lots of room and add considerable time to the install. I use shrink wrap for all the connector insulation. As for speakers I like the Soundtraxx mega bass and I also like the Railmaster hobbies speakers (http://www.railmasterhobbies.com/) and enclosures. I would still do a stall current test to make sure that the can is behaving itself. No disrespect to Mark (who has much more experience at this than I) but I have found extra wipers to be necessary even with a keep alive, especially in small brass. Given the size of this loco, you may be able to avoid extra pick up. For step by step help, check out the info by Mark Schutzer. Look in the clinics section on his site. Here is a link: http://markschutzer.com/ Looking at your vandy tender I would say you may have to grind a hole in the water tank side of the sloped bunker wall to open up the area in the cylinder for the decoder and the keep alive (or the wow with keep alive installed). I can’t tell the dimensions in the photo but it doesn’t look like you have a dimension that will be long enough without the hole. BTW: Most of the guys I know who are doing brass installs in HO put the decoders and speakers in the tender due to space constraints in the locomotive. Your mileage may vary, Guy
Guy, thanks so much for this additional advice, particularly the links to Railmaster and to Mark Schutzer's clinics. I'll spend some time looking over his page to get some ideas.
I also appreciate the second opinion on the Soundtraxx Tsunami decoders and speakers. It's hard for me to judge any of this going through it all for the first time, so all these opinions are really valuable to me. It had occurred to me that one way of putting everything in the tender would simply be to cut the hole you suggest in the sloped portion of the tender wall and tuck the decoder and keep alive into the water tank. Then the speakers would occupy the space under the coal load. And I guess that's the other thing I'm not precisely clear on: can you project the speakers up through the coal? and how is the best way of doing that exactly?
Lots of choices here and decisions, I like the idea of using this engine as a guinea pig since there's a lot less sentimental value here at stake. still, I want to do things right and have a nice model come out of it on the other end.
at any rate, thanks again very much for chipping in with these insights.
You can definately project the sound up through the coal load. The trick in your case will be finding or making a coal load that is easy to drill a whole bunch of tiny holes in. The holes all but disappear between the granules of the coal, even where the coal load is a single piece of plastic.
Here is a Bachmann tender with about 80 holes drilled in it:
You can obviously do a better job of simulating the coal than the rather crude molding above.
If I were working on the project I would start with a sheet of .040" styrene (black would be ideal) and use a bit of gentle heat to form it roughly into the shape of the coal load. Then I would trim it to size, paint it black if necessary, and then glue suitably sized coal or simulated coal to the surface. It might take a couple of layers of coal to disguise the plastic underneath. Then, set to work with your drill and drill it full of holes. You can get away with a #50 - #60 drill bit.
Just a suggestion. Others might have a better method to offer.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Dave, that's awesome, and thanks for including the photo. Assuming I stick with the tender installation, that's probably how I'll go about it. I've gotten sidetracked yet again with the other issue (camelback regearing thread!), but will come back to this one and get my materials ordered to do a sound install. I'm eager to get this first one under my belt. thanks again.
one more thing. In thinking through the camelback regearing problem on the other thread, I took Guy's suggestion and read over Mark Schutzer's web site http://markschutzer.com/ , which includes slide sets from presentations he has done on rebuilding and repairing brass engines. Particularly helpful to me were the photos he includes on step-by-step procedures for repairs.
In the clinic slides on regearing, he included some photos of a torque arm that he installs to provide more stability to the motor and gearbox after he's done with his repairs. Here's a screen capture below taken directly from his site (credit to Mark Schutzer!).
It occurred to me that possibly this would provide a location for mounting a decoder in the boiler of a steam loco? in other words, could you install the torque arm, connecting it to motor and gearbox, and then install a decoder on to the torque arm and either cement it in place or tape it on with kapton? Or is that just a bad idea?
I'm wondering if that would help split the decoder/sound hardware distribution problem: the decoder would stay in the boiler, the speaker would stay in the coal bin of the tender. On this particular loco, I would then avoid having to cut open the sloped wall of the coal area.
any thoughts on that possibility? and ok to tell me that it's a stupid idea, is there a reason for keeping the torque arm free of such encumbrances?
Guy, thanks for this, I think you're right--no need to make this more complicated than it needs to be, especially on the first go-round. The main thing now is simply to decide which decoder and speakers to go with, I haven't looked at the various decoder dimensions closely yet, ultimately it would be nice to fit everything in the coal area and not have to cut into that sloped wall. Three options as I understand it, loksound, wowsound, and tsunami? and then either the cube speakers or something larger, I haven't even looked at the Soundtraxx or Railmaster sites yet to check out those speaker options.
I'm taking a break today from engine woes and wiring some turnouts. One of the things that I like so far about getting back into the hobby is the variety of things to work on--while you're chewing on one problem, you can be working on another. But I'll figure out my materials list and get my stuff ordered for the sound install and will keep everyone posted on how that goes.
There is a lot of mis-conception that you "have to let the sound out". I have found that you get increased frequency response by having the speaker in a sealed enclosure inside another "almost" sealed enclosure.
I recently did a sound install in an older spectrum SD45, and due to the split chassis, the only logical place for the speaker was to mill out the bottom of the fuel tank casting - which I did. Prior to putting everything back together, I always do a test run. As expected, it sounded pretty good with the speaker in a sealed enclosure under the engine.
I figured at this point I would then drill a bunch of holes in the plastic fuel tank to "let the sound out". Out of curiosity, I installed the plastic tank without any holes, and the sound was notably improved ! The frequency range was drastically improved and it wasn't as directional - not as obvious that it was actually coming from below the engine .... it got left like that.
I think in the case of the speaker being mounted in the tender, if that's where you HAVE to put it, by keeping the speaker / enclosure sealed in the tender, the sound is much less directional taking away from the fact the sound is coming from the tender and not the engine (that's a real pet peeve of mine). As soon as there is an opening to a speaker, it's real obvious where the sound is coming from.
With your eyes closed, you can easily orient a speaker box so you are directly in front of it. Put that speaker in another sealed enclosure, you cannot easily tell where the front of the speaker is with your eyes closed - the whole thing sounds the same .... same concept in our sealed engine shells. With holes in the coal load, it becomes real obvious the sound is coming from the coal load. If the tender was sealed, the sound is coming from the whole tender, it's no longer as directional.
Just some food for thought based on my own experiences ....
JimT Guy, thanks for this, I think you're right--no need to make this more complicated than it needs to be, especially on the first go-round. The main thing now is simply to decide which decoder and speakers to go with, I haven't looked at the various decoder dimensions closely yet, ultimately it would be nice to fit everything in the coal area and not have to cut into that sloped wall. Three options as I understand it, loksound, wowsound, and tsunami? and then either the cube speakers or something larger, I haven't even looked at the Soundtraxx or Railmaster sites yet to check out those speaker options. I'm taking a break today from engine woes and wiring some turnouts. One of the things that I like so far about getting back into the hobby is the variety of things to work on--while you're chewing on one problem, you can be working on another. But I'll figure out my materials list and get my stuff ordered for the sound install and will keep everyone posted on how that goes. Jim
The Loksound Micro is the smallest of any of them and doesn't have the heat issues of the Tsunami Micro. Now, that being said, steam is not Loksound's strong-hold. While the sound files are good, both TCS and Soundtraxx still sound a bit better.
I'm not a steam expert by no means, so to me, if it sounds like a steam engine, it must be a steam engine. I rely on the experts to let me know if it is correct or not.
You really need to look into the cell phone / sugar cube speakers. Twice the sound in half the space. Just Google 'sugar cube speakers" for a bunch of results including video examples.
Mark, I really appreciate this advice too. When I get to that point I think I'll try it both ways as well, and see which sounds best.
I also suspect that at this point I don't have the most sophisticated sound palate as well. So the Loksound may just be the best choice for starters, given the space constraints.