I have a number of DVDs containing archival raifan footage of steam locos from the 1950s, including some with simultaneous sound recording. (Since almost all railfan film at the time was silent, most DVDs have sound dubbed in from whatever source is available.) If I compare the sound, even on dubbed DVDs, with what I hear of model sound, I'm just not impressed.
For instance, if I go to Youtube videos of model railroad sound, it's a monotnous chuff-chuff, tinny and irritating. I just don't know how much of this is a problem with the recording and playback on a computer, but while I don't mean to complain about MRVP, I see no difference in the professionally produced sound coverage of model layouts there.
Herron Rail Videos has a number of DVDs with film by Donald Krofta, who recorded NKP, NYC, and PRR steam on tape recorders at the same time he was shooting film, and the Herron DVDs have the simultaneous sound track. The difference is night and day, to the extent that I'm hesitant to go too far into current-generation DCC sound. I have a feeling that the sound events coming from a modern large steam loco are different from those coming from smaller or narrow gauge steam, for instance, but I'm wondering where some of the recordings used in commercial products are coming from. An NKP Berkshire on Krofta film sounds nothing like a model. I don't know enough about what some of the pops and hisses are to explain, but I can only suggest people check it out.
Other sounds that seem to be missing are side rod clank and the various steam events coming from the cylinders. And a real steam loco often doesn't chuff-chuff downhill or slowing down.
Are there commercial products that are better than others? If I were to get a Bachmann DCC only NKP Berkshire, might there be an aftermarket sound decoder that would be impressively better than the Sound Value that comes with a sound-equipped loco?
Or should I just bide my time on this stuff?
Physical limitations mean that sound on-board the loco will always fall short of real, although there are potential developments in supplemental sound from off the loco adding more pizazz in the future. I will say don't believe everything you hear on those old recordings with dubbed-in sound. Those can be pretty artificial and many decoders have more effective options anyway than that.
Face it, it's a model. People often use this complaint as the reson they don'ty buy sound. Fair enough, then you're really not part of the conversation about how to get the best model sound then, right?
I have mostly Tsunami steam experience, with some QSI diesel thrown in, so my doirect experience other than occassional encounters with the other flavors of sound now available is somewhat limited. When properly programmed, the Tsunami can give you plenty of rod-clank and the other drivetrain sounds. And once you play with the DDE in the Tsu, you get a very responsive sounding loco that digs in a pulls hard on a grade, then drifts downgrade.
Some, but maybe not all of that is included in the various stripped-down OEM decoders that Soundtraxx supplies to loco manufacturers. You'll have to check product documentation to confirm whats there.
I haven't heard the new TCS Wow decoders in person yet, but they are supposed to be even better than the Tsunami. In any case, be aware that getting the best sound out of a loco depends on getting it set-up so it sounds good to you.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
So then, can we get specific? And it's not enough to say check the doc, because the Sound Value Tsunami doc lists CVs that aren't supported. There may be limitations on forums for what can be done -- so maybe this is a subject for MRVP or Cody's Workshop or Larry Puckett to take up somehow. Bottom line: if some sound decoders make the sounds we really want to hear, which are they, and how do we set them up?
The usual forum gurus fall short.
JOHN BRUCE III Bottom line: if some sound decoders make the sounds we really want to hear, which are they, and how do we set them up? The usual forum gurus fall short.
Bottom line: if some sound decoders make the sounds we really want to hear, which are they, and how do we set them up?
So basically your question is just a long winded form of "what is the best steam sound decoder." That's subjective, so what you feel are important features may not be important to others. My answer to you: do some research. I think most sound decoder manuals can be found online. If you can't find what it is you're looking for them an email or phone call to the manufacturer would be a good idea. If you want things handed to you, good luck with that.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
The TCS WOW steam decoder is about as good as you are going to get. They have gone to great lengths to make the decoder sound and function as close to the real thing as possible.
How do you set it up ? I'm pretty sure that's what the manual is for .... not much point in reposting the entire manual here.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
One thing about the Bachmann Sound value version of the Tsunami decoder. If it will be important to you that the sound not always come on when you turn on track power, you will not be able to disable that feature as the CV113 that typically can do so is inactive, at least on the 2-6-0 mogul. I have the Tsunamis in my Athearn Genesis northern, challenger and big boy and can adjust that feature. The mogul is beginning to drive me nuts (I don't want to have to select it, hit F8 every power up), to the point I'm deciding on switching decoders ($$).
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Excuse me? I think an appropriate answer to my question might be "the hissing fropm the cylinder cocks that you often hear from cetain XYZ locos is the abc. CV 105 on the DEF decoder does this" -- or some such. A forum at best is a shortcut to some forms of research, definitely. If someone here is knowledgeable enough to match actual large steam sounds to decoder CVs, I would deeply appreciate it.
One or two guys don't seem to appreciate the observation that there are gurus who reply with generalities on nearly every thread, whether they're knowledgeable as to specifics or not. That's just what seems to happen, whether someone points it out or not.
So let me rephrase: are there subject areas on other forums, or yahoo groups, or whatever else, where people knowledgeably discuss the sounds made by modern steam locos and how they may be obtained from decoders? This is not the same question as "what is the best decoder", and I'm not sure if the gurus here can answer it. Nor do I think a particular CV listing will tell me what corresponds, say, to the sound at 3:52 on such-and-such a Youtube of PM 1225.
Join the appropriate Yahoo Groups for Soundtraxx, TCS, etc. if you want specific answers to a specific decoder. Those groups are solely focussed on the brand specific decoder.
As to the appropriate answer to your question, I didn't see a specific question to answer. I don't know how you expect a specific answer if you don't state the brand of decoder, the soundfile you are working with or the specific sound slot in question. There is no blanket answer.
Each manufacturer produces a manual for their decoder with specifications as to what they do and what CVs are required to change them to your liking. As for what a particular sound is you are hearing on the proto-type, you need to search out some proto-type steam forums and ask questions there. Most folks who are very knowledgable with steam can tell you what is what by listening to it. Once you know WHAT the sound is, you can cross-reference it to the sound files in the decoder .... just don't expect the decoder to sound exactly the same as the video you are watching, unless the sound file on the decoder was recorded from the exact same engine at the exact same time as the one in your video.
Engines even of the same class will sound different due to age and wear.
John,
I'm definitely not a guru, but it was a rather general question. For specifics, this is what I have (and have posted it before a time or two), which applies to Tsunami steam -- the full-featured version. All I can say is compare the active CVs here with what you can find on the OEM Tsunami and that will tell you more about what options are out there right now with the Tsunami. Many expect that a next gen Tsunami is in the works, considering the competition from the Wow and the length of time this generation of Tsunamis have been in service.
As noted, the first group was specifically for the C-19, but will get you in the ballpark with many steam Tsunamis. As they all note IIRC you will have to adjust several setting to best please your ear even with these. There is also some slightly conflicting settings, buit there's more than one way to skin a cat; some maybe work better or not, so try different stuff if you don't get good results at first. Everyone's hearing is subjective about what's "good" and every loco is slightly different, so be prepared to adjust, use, adjust some more to get the best results. Just loading these will make a marked improvement over factory default settings, though.
Tsunami PID/BEMF CV Tuning Concepts
I spent quite some time on the phone with Soundtraxx today. The following is a write up of what I was told. It includes knowledge I have gained recently in researching the PID process in general and the Tsunami decoders in particular. A PID controller is a well-known method of doing "process control". In our case the "process" is the speed of our Tsunami equipped locomotives. And the task we are working towards is producing a process/procedure that will allow the user to find/discover the best/correct settings for their particular locomotive that will give them the performance they want.
It is also important to understand that the values for a particular locomotive – make and model and scale – may not work for other locomotive … and may not even work for a ‘sister’ locomotive (one that was produced in the same run of the same make and model). And when we are talking about this kind of thing there is an assumption that the decoders are also the same make and model. Yes, certainly if you have two sister locos and you have one of them running the way you like it then you should try the same settings (CVs) for this new one … and at least use them as a starting point. But don’t be surprised if you find you have to change one or more CV values – nor even if the settings for one are significantly different from those that ‘work’ in the other one.
One of the most important aspects of a PID controller is the idea that it is not expected to achieve the "perfect" value on the first pass. It is an iterative process and will reach the targer (in our case target speed) after several successive corrections. And, precisely due to this iterative nature – the formula that is a PID controller uses the history of the past corrections … in addition to the current measurements (in our case the BEMF value that is read during the "off" segments of the PWM. The idea is to "home in" on the correct value for the PWM – and then to keep adjusting the PWM in very tiny adjustments … all with the goal of having the motor turn at a constant RPM for a given speed setting. And also with the goal of changing from any current speed step to a new speed step … smoothly (a nice steady increase or decrease in speed that results in the operator seeing his train moving in a manner that approximates what happens on a real train.
CV 209 is the Kp in the PID. It should usually be a low number (25 and below). Kp is the ‘current error’ value. Think of it as the ‘base value’ (size) of the error (difference between the target and the actual). But the value of CV209 is a range from 1 to 255 – so what CV 209 really represents is a "percentage" of the Kp that will be used.
CV 210 is the Ki in the PID. It should usually be a low number – and it will usually be a lower number than 209. Ki is the integral error value – that is to say that it is the sum of the past few changes (corrections). Think of it as an ‘adjustment’ to the Kp – based upon what has happened the past few times the PID value has been computed. Again the value of CV210 is not the actual value of the Ki but rather it is the percentage of the computed Ki that will be used to form the actual correction (final PID output calculation) to the PWM.
There is a "D" in the Tsunami PID controller. It is not "externalized" and Soundtraxx does not think that we, the users, should be messing with the "D" in the PID formula. The Kd in the PID calculation represents the rate of change, over time, of the PID calculation. Think of it as the slope of the curve of the error. The value for the "D" works the same way as the values for 209 and 210 … it is also a range/percent.
Turn off all momentum (CVs 3 and 4) before starting. It is probably even a good idea to just do a decoder reset.
It is highly unlikely that you will be successful in tuning the motor performance CVs correctly – if the locomotive wheels or the test track are not clean. Always start all such procedures with cleaning the wheels and track!
Use 128 speed step mode for all tuning (and running?). It is very hard for the PID controller to do its job – to provide smooth changes of speed and relatively constant RPM when the speed isn’t changing – if you only provide it with 28 steps (because each individual value represents a much larger percentage of the range of the throttle (think PWM).
CV 212 is the "intensity" of the PID calculation that will be used. Think of the PID calculation as a number. That number is actually a ‘correction’ for an error (the result of the PID calculation). If the value of 212 is 255 then 100% of that correction will be used. If the value of 212 is 128 then 50% of the correction will be used. An example will help. Let’s say that the target speed is 100, the current speed is 90. So the "error" is –10. And the PID calculation (for simplicity of this example of how 212 works) is +10. Sooooo, if 212 has a value of 128 then the PID correction, this time around, would be +5. As the value of 212 is reduced the number of iterations of the PID correction process that are required to reach a given target from a given start/error point will take longer and longer. Truly low values of 212 can produce a loco that is very ‘sluggish’ in terms of throttle response.
CV 213 is the specification of how often a BEMF measurement is taken. It is a frequency in a number of milliseconds – if the value in 213 is 23 then it takes a measurement every 23 milliseconds. Let’s use an example from real life … this is "how often does the nurse take your temperature?".
CV 214 is the duration of the BEMF ‘window’ (it is NOT the "D" in PID). It is how long the window is open. This is the "how long does the nurse leave the thermometer under your tongue?".
If you set the BEMF cut off level (CV 10) to a small value then the PID controller will be ‘in use’ over less of the entire speed range. This is, in general, a good thing. Values between 20 and 40 are recommended.
What does "starts moving" mean? Many of the tuning procedures ask you to do something until the locomotive start to move. There are 3 kinds of ‘movement’. There is the first little bit of movement – it may even be a little lurch – but the loco does not move continuously and will spend more time stopped than moving. The second phase is where the loco is moving but it may not be at a steady rate and it may not be "smooth". This is not "tie crawling" speed. The third phase is where the loco is definitely moving and is well above "tie crawling". You would still call it ‘slow’ but you wouldn’t call it very slow. For most PID tuning procedures when it says "until it starts moving" we are talking about the 2nd phase.
Locomotives should be tuned "light" (no train cars behind them). You need to know that the loco will perform well on its own. A loco with a train behind it may require more throttle in order to move at the same speed as it does light – and that’s a good thing and is a better simulation of an actual locomotive (and will sound better).
This is all I’m going to write up at this time. I intend to use this information in order to develop a procedure (or small set of procedures) that will allow you to find the best settings for the motor performance CVs - 209, 210, 212, 213, and 214 primarily … but also the BEMF cutoff, the momentum, and the trim CVs.
- Jim Betz (14 June 2010)"
One thing that can help with the mass of CVs that could be involved is to set-up JMRI DecoderPro. It reads and writes all this to and from your locos in a nice graphical form that makes it a lot easier to change and keep track of numerous CV settings.
Siderod clank and chuff effort are part of any (semi) recent sound decoder. Sountraxx-LC (1st gen stuff) doesn't do it. QSI, Soundtraxx, and I think LokSound & TCS do. (Someone please confirm the later)
QSI is likely the most advanced in this regard. They adjust chuff cutoff, blowdown at startup, and amount of chuff effort based on load.
The chuff is often too loud compared to the bell or whistle. If you run them at speed you can barely hear the bell/whistle. So I like to turn down the chuff volume and air pump volume to about half. (Where it should be in the first place IMHO)
Mega bass speakers really help with whistles.
Now as to your complaint, getting those sounds is...tough. There a couple things you can do on some decoders like Tsunami's like add reverb. This makes it sound "more rich"
By default the QSI sounds reverbs is turned on. But it distorts with a lot of clipping in my humble opinion.
Yes a locomotive at speed sounds incredibly different then locomotive at rest. A tape recording of a locomotive moving through hills and towns gets reverb and echos. Plus there are doppler shifts, and volume changes. The only way you can get a good clean reliable sound is to record it near the rods at a slow speed. The rest you have to interpolate.
Where it really falls apart is at high speed. If it were me and I was a sound engineer, I would record the sound at speed and go into a studio and mark the chuff points by hand then extrapolate an at speed sound with the regular chuff. The closer you get to at speed, the more at speed loop sample you would use (adjusting for chuff...which requires a resample) Removing the wind noise might be a bit of a @#$@# however.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Without considering assorted minor sounds from miscellaneous sources (which differed from loco to loco even when they were of the same class,) there is one fact of physics that dooms on-board sound to mediocrity. There is no way for a speaker the size of a small coin to reproduce the bass component of locomotive exhaust.
I well remember being trackside when my prototypes blasted and rumbled past. I doubt that anything short of a theater-size subwoofer could do that thunder justice. Since I'm rather underwhelmed by the equivalent from a model locomotive, my own models will continue to wear their dolphins.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - silently)
Reading over the O.P.'s and other's posts to this and other threads, makes me wonder what we expect out of the hobby, today. We have demanded that the models, which for the most part we don't build anymore, be very highly detailed; look, operate and sound exactly like the real thing. Do we now lack the imagination we had back when we ran our Tyco; or, Varney trains around an oval stopping at the stations in our imaginations? I guess I am thankful that I can be happy with how things work at this point in time although I do miss there being more kits to build!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
We are just boys playing with toys.
Reducing sound locos 87 times, at least for HO scale, we loose a lot.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
If you keep the volume down the the amp doesn;t distort and the speaker isn;t overdriven, most sound decoders actually sound pretty good. If you're going to scale down, you have to scale everything down. To expect a 20mm speaker to produce room filling floor shaking sound like a full size loco, well, you might as well just go take up golf. It's NEVER going to happen. You can add all the sound processing you want, it's not physically possible. If you are standing 5 feet fromt he rails and your head is, let's say, 2 feet higher than the railhead, you are square root of 29 away from the loco, about 5.4 feet. That's almost 500 feet in full size, NOT standing right trackside watching a powerful loco thunder by. Stand 10 feet from the layout, over 880 feet away. 15 feet- closing in on a quarter mile. Yes, I can hear the trains, faintly, on the tracks 1/4 mile from my house. Horns a bit better. But while 15 feet might actually be too close to the real thing, 15 feet from an HO model is a good distance - the loco shouldn;t be loud at that kind of distance.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
It is you guys who can’t be satisfied with the status quo that drive innovation and the advancement of the hobby and I don’t know if I should thank you; or, cuss you!
Oh I'm plenty happy with the sounds of my two steam locos with sound. And I know the whistle, bell, and air compressors are completely accurate as they came from a recording of the actual loco (well, same class, different road number, by the time the recordings were made, the two road numbers I have were long melted to scrap). The fellow modeler who used his personal recordings to make these sound sets said the chuffs really didn't sound any different than what was already in the decoder so he didn't modify those.
NP2626The Tsunami sound in my Walthers Proto USRA 0-8-0 is actually pretty good
To the OP topic of the thread, the exhaust steam sounds of even an individual locomotive can very greatly depending on its load and how the engineer has set the reversing lever. The PFM sound unit has user adjustable chuff, exhaust cut off, and tone. I used to spend hours practicing with it to get from a stop up to full speed sounding just right. The more modern DCC sound decoders (like the WOW) are beginning to use the feedback from the motor and timing of the control events to adjust the chuff sound from labored to drifting. According to the docuentation the WOW can have each of these things adjusted according to your preference, in that reguard the WOW might be what you are looking for. Sorry a WOW is one unit I've not gotten to play with yet, so I can only say what the documentation says. -- You did ask for "thoughts".