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Changed Out Genesis GP-9 Tsunami to LokSound and Sugar-Cube Speakers

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Posted by hon30critter on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 10:46 PM

Paul:

Thanks for the link to Tony's info. It certainly answers the question as you said.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by peahrens on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 8:26 PM

Further on the issue of which way the sugarcube speakers face, they are now shown at Tonys Trains and they say the "cone" / membrane / speaker should face into the enclosure as noted before basis SBS experience.  Tony's quotes a fraction of the distortion attained with the membrane facing out:

http://tonystrains.com/product/tds-supersonic-small-speaker/

I don't understand this but will accept it.  Nothing like data, for an engineer.  I would think either it would not matter, or the casing on the magnet would act as a semi-enclosure and reduce or affect the sound out the "back" (magnet side).  But it may have to do with design.  Maybe they are intended to be installed in phones that way and have features about the casing that optimize the sound coming out the "back".

Not being a "denier" (on this subject), I finished my first (skinny) Kato RS-2 yesterday and installed two 13x18mm speakers (with LokSound) in the upper roof. I faced the membranes up to the solid roof, where the sides mated with the roof curves.  I added styrene enclosure ends on each end and sealed the rather small enclosure space with silicone.  It works, but I'll report on that in another thread after I do the 2nd RS-2.  The question there is whether to do the 2nd one with the smaller 11x15 speaker pair, just for comparison.  The 13x18s fit the width very nicely, so I'll likely repeat that.  And BTW, they should sell DCC shoehorns for stuffing the wires in an RS-2 with decoder, LEDs and speakers.  I think I'll defer to others the sound conversions of the small GE 44/45-tonners. And then there's N scale!

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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Posted by rrinker on Sunday, January 25, 2015 7:53 PM

 His problem and suggested fix is actually in the Loksound manual - it recommends disabling all protocols not being used (for Loksound V4 - which handles pretty much all digital protocols ever used. Digitrax, unlike his MRC Prodigy system, supports the Marklin/Motorola Trinary protocol as well as NMRA DCC, so this is probably why there are some wierd things happening with customers that have Digitrax. I didn;t compare an older version of the Loksound manual, but the version I looked at yesterday does have a paragrpah under the section for the various protocols where it mentions disabling everythign except the one you plan to use. And they put a good bit of safety check in there - it says it will not disable the protocol used to change the CV, so if you try to turn of NMRA DCC using an NMRA DCC program track, it will ignore it. And you can never disable Lokprogrammer protocol, so even if somehow you manage to lock out everything, you cna still access the decoder using a Lokprogrammer.

                                  --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by hon30critter on Sunday, January 25, 2015 6:57 PM

hon30critter
One thing I noticed with your sugar cube enclosure is that you have the diaphrams (the moving parts) pointed to the outside of the enclosure. The examples shown on the Streamlined Backshop website have the baffles over the moving parts, which is how I have done mine. http://sbs4dcc.com/tutorialstipstricks/sugarcubespeakernotes.html Both seem to work so I'm not sure what the logic is with having the diaphrams enclosed, other than for protection maybe. I'll send Bryan at Streamlined Backshop a note and let you know what his response is. Dave

Update:

I got an e-mail from Bryan at Streamlined Backshop. He said that he has always oriented the diaphragm to the inside of the enclosure because the sound in the sugar cube speakers comes from the magnet side of the speaker, not the diaphragm. He admitted that he has never mounted them with the diaphragms pointing out, but he said he would give it a try.

He admitted that he is still experimenting with sugar cube speakers, but he has done more than 100 installations with only three situations having problems. Those problems all occurred with the exact same combination of decoder, program cab and operating cab, and they turned out to be related to the decoder programming and not the speakers themselves. You can read more about that on his website:

http://sbs4dcc.com/tutorialstipstricks/sugarcubespeakernotes.html

So, the official jury is still out on whether or not the diaphragms should point in or out, but I'm inclined to say that Paul's installation shows that it might not make too much difference since his seems to work quite well.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by BumpyJack68 on Tuesday, January 20, 2015 10:57 AM

Another great post Paul. Several points that I can't disagree with. I am by no means an expert in model train sound systems.

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, January 19, 2015 11:35 PM

Paul:

Great thread!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by peahrens on Monday, January 19, 2015 8:44 PM

First, about the 1.1" HiBass speakers with enclosure.  I went with these, from TonysTrains in two Bachmann 2-8-0 conversions to sound basis their recommendation for speakers of that size and liked the idea of the provided enclosure.  Since two of them would fit the LifeLike P2K E-6 atop the weight (if removing the factory board), I figured that was the best bang for the space available (I had to grind the weight slightly).  They are $12 each.  I don't know if you can buy the raw speaker there or elsewhere to build your own enclosure if so inclined:

 http://tonystrains.com/product/high-base-1-10dx0-44-wbox/

EDIT: Here's some more info on the various TDS HiBass and other speakers:

http://www.stevesdepot.com/?nav=dccqsispeakers-hibass

On the E-series P2Ks, all I know is the two E-6 Lifelike P2Ks I acquired.  I can't comment on other E locos.  My E-6 QSI Quantum roughly 2004 (blue box) is sound equipped (not in these videos), and the speaker recesses for two 1"+ speakers are in the frame.  But I'm not enamored of the Quantum motor control quirks (or I don't understand how to adjust it). The E-6 LifeLike P2K you see here (gray box) came with 8-pin plug.  I don't know when built but it has a lower model number than the other, so maybe earlier.  While there was an 8-pin plug, it lacked the speaker recesses in the frame for two large round speakers, so I removed the lightboard over the rear of the frame and ground off the screw protrusions which made a nice space for the two 1.1" HiBass (but covering the two rear frame screws).  And I changed the front bulbs to LEDs. 

On the subject of different speakers combined.  First, I know little.  On harmonics interactions and such, quoting Sgt. Schultz, "I know nothing!".  One premise I would have is that the LokSound files are real recordings, so the more accurate the reproduction, the better.  Any false harmonics would therefore be undesirealbe, but whether noticeable is not sure.  Another aspect that struck me is that the two different type speakers (if you look at the spec sheets) have dissimilar frequency response curves.  Let's say one speaker had a flaw at 500Hz and the other at 1000Hz.  If two of the first speaker were used, the anomaly would be all at 500Hz.  If two of the second, all at 1000Hz.  But if one of each used (and at the same total output volume) it seems one would have distortion at two points but at 1/2 the amount.  Which would sonically sound better is beyond me (e.g., are the harmonics interactions of these inaccuracies more sonically noticeable?).  If both were perfect (flat frequency response across the audible spectrum) I'd assume they would not interact in any negative way(?).  Or would even two perfect ones in a perfect box create anomalies as the back waves in the box interact with each other?? And since imperfect, I asssume that creates the ability to create the negative (harmonic?) impacts that are mentioned above.  How that all balances out may result in the overall advice not to combine two different types in the same cabinet (w/o crossovers). I guess that's why we need audio engineers.

On the subject of adjacent speakers demagnitizing each other, I did find (in one of several google pdf's, one of which was 800 pgs) that the fancy Nd-Fe-B magnet types used in these are the least susceptible to demagnitization by other fields.  But that does not clarify the extent of demag over time.  I do note that Streamlined Backshops has adjacent combos of 2-4 speakers and presume that they work well for a considerable time.

I'm not expert enough to debate, just interested.  Thanks for the comments and progressing my understanding.

I do need to comment further that the sugar cubes may be the better for the space available in terms of overall sound (idle, etc) as the lower frequencies seem more impressive.  But they do seem to distort slightly when the horn is blown, particularly at mid to higher CV settings, maybe because they are overdriven.  Better than the Tsunami w/factory speaker for sure, and better overall than the oval LokSound IMO.  But not as good as the HiBass 1.1" pair.  Still the choice for this application (especially with volume moderated) but perhaps more attention to enclosure design, speaker pairing, wattage rating, etc, would close the gap some. I'm still interested in whether the DigiKey Knowles sugar cubes are the best attainable for this size and ohm rating, and whether sugar cubes larger than the 13x18mm are available.  

  

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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Posted by Bayfield Transfer Railway on Monday, January 19, 2015 5:41 PM

Please say more about the 1.1" HiBass speakers!

 

Disclaimer:  This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.

Michael Mornard

Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!

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Posted by BumpyJack68 on Monday, January 19, 2015 2:48 PM

Great thread and great job by the OP. I am a retired audio engineer. There are some interesting points here.Perhaps conflicting harmonics might not be a bad thing when reproducing large diesel engine sounds?

 I'm kinda guessing at this but don't diesel locos produce all sorts of low frequency harmonics prototypically?

For music and quality theater sound reproduction harmonics (unwanted that is) and distortion are not a good thing. Different sized speakers in the same cabinet are not uncommon in high level ($$$$) audio enclosures. Although pro cabinets will frequently use active crossovers (freq division before amplification)the cabinets will have separate enclosures inside them for different frequencies. High-mid-low, etc.

Lastly, having 2 speakers in close proximity can have a coupling effect.That is the sum of the 2 speakers is greater than 2 speakers of the same specks being further apart. In this case I would think having identical speakers close coupled in the same enclosure with the same input would be a good thing. IMHO $.02

Great job guys.

PS do the Proto 2000 E 7, 8, 9, , etc have 8 or 9 pin DCC plugs? Speaker mounting positions? Thanks again :D

 

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, January 19, 2015 9:04 AM

 I think over time you could have loss of efficiency from the interacting magnetic fields. Magnets DO lose power over ime, some compositions more than others.

                 --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by peahrens on Monday, January 19, 2015 8:45 AM

Another electronics detail crosses my mind.  When two of the sugar cubes are put next to each other the magnets in this case repulse each other a bit (push each other away about 1/4").  Superglue overcomes that, but I wonder if the magnetic fields when forced together are bothered enough to affect the speakers' performance in a significant way?  I'd guess not enough to matter??

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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Posted by Mark R. on Sunday, January 18, 2015 7:11 PM

It's fun experimenting with these to see what works better / best.

As for multiple speakers in the same cabinet, as you mentioned - the important aspect in home stereo speakers with different sizes is that a cross-over network send different frequency ranges to each of the speakers, so there is no conflict.

When using full range speakers (right down to these little guys), they should be of identical specs.

Mark.

¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ

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Posted by peahrens on Sunday, January 18, 2015 6:32 PM

Thanks for the info on the parallel wattage capability.  Also interesting regarding the two different sizes combined.  Of course stereo 2-way and 3-way speakers have several sized in one box, but they have crossovers that send most of a frequency range to the right one, and may use dampening material for a reason I forget.  I could have used an internal thin separator piece.

On the importance of which way the speakers face (in or out) I think the following may be helpful.  Here is the general page but also see the part (there's another page) on "inverted" cone sealed boxes.  It seems to suggest no sonic difference.  That may be hypothetical, as there may be minor effects.  But it may not be as critical as getting the system pieces (speaker, any gaskets, box pieces) properly fitted and glued / sealed together. 

http://www.mobileinformationlabs.com/HowTo-1Woofer-BoxPaid-New.htm

It really helps to have the speakers in hand.  I can readily see that two of the larger ones will fit side by side crossways in my RS-2s, if I mount them near the top of the walls in the long hood and just put baffle pieces on each end, using the solid hood top and side walls to complete the box.  The box would not be as deep as the GP-9s, however.  And everything would be glued in fairly permanently. 

I'm a little over my head here (hear) so hope I don't make any fatal errors that can't be corrected without a new loco.  Fortunately the speaker parts are inexpensive.

 

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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Posted by Mark R. on Sunday, January 18, 2015 4:58 PM

When using speakers inparallel, their total wattage handling is the sum of the total wattages. In your case, the two 0.6 watt speakers could handle a total of 1.2 watts or 2 watts total peak. If I recall correctly, the Loksound decoders are capable of a full 2 watts of power.

My concern, more than anything, would be the use of two dissimilar speakers in the same enclosure. With two different waves frequencies coming off the front and back of the speaker, it may create some rather odd harmonics. You could minimize this by placing a wall inside the enclosure to separate the backs from each other, but there will still be a variation from the front.

Common speaker cabinet design always stresses to never use two dissimilar drivers in the same cabinet. You would probably have netted even better results using two of the 11mm X 15mm together if space was a concern.

Mark. 

¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ

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Posted by hon30critter on Sunday, January 18, 2015 1:50 PM

Paul:

The videos work fine.

I agree that the E6 with dual speakers sounds a little more robust. It would be nice if we had that sort of space available in all our engines, but alas...

One thing I noticed with your sugar cube enclosure is that you have the diaphrams (the moving parts) pointed to the outside of the enclosure. The examples shown on the Streamlined Backshop website have the baffles over the moving parts, which is how I have done mine. http://sbs4dcc.com/tutorialstipstricks/sugarcubespeakernotes.html 

Both seem to work so I'm not sure what the logic is with having the diaphrams enclosed, other than for protection maybe.

I'll send Bryan at Streamlined Backshop a note and let you know what his response is.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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    January 2010
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Changed Out Genesis GP-9 Tsunami to LokSound and Sugar-Cube Speakers
Posted by peahrens on Sunday, January 18, 2015 1:05 PM

Hi, all.  I made some more progress on the learning curve yesterday and would enjoy posting some info.  Any comments are most welcome.

I didn't like the 2012 GP-9 factory sound and really liked the LokSound (with 2 1.1" HiBass speakers and 12 cyl EMD 567) I recently put in a Lifelike P2K E6.  I ordered the LokSound Direct board for the GP-9 loaded with the EMD 16 cyl sound file.  The board replacement was pretty straightforward but the speaker room of course would not accommodate a 1.1" HiBass pair (parallel gives 4 ohms).  The following shot shows the Tsunami board and factory oval speaker enclosure atop the truck.

Of course the direct board is easy to deal with as it fits atop the holder prongs.  I haven't addressed adding LED lights yet (which will be tight at the long hood end). I concluded I could fit an enclosure with dual sugar-cube speakers (iPhone5 type) that arrived from Digikey.  I bought some 11x15 and 13x18mm size.  I could not fit two 13x18 unless building the enclosure in place between the hood walls, wanting an independent enclosure for this first shot.  So I put one of each size in a styrene box, wiring them in parallel (since different I had to interpret the data sheets), and making the enclosure 12mm deep.  Some shots follow:

I left the back off initially (concerned about whether I had phasing correct) but sealed everything else with silicone.  Before trying the sugar-cube setup, I connected the LokSound provided oval speaker, which has a small enclosure.  I did not seal it's wire pass-through hole.  I then did a short video (Part 1 below).  I'd say it was better than the factory setup, sound file of course but also overall audio quality. 

Then I attached the sugar-cube setup with the open back (Part 2 below).  Everything was ok until triggering the horn (at default CV volume).  You will hear why folks have reported an enclosure is needed! I figured something was wrong; i.e., I had damaged a speaker membrane or something, and putting the back on was wishful thinking.  Well, see Part 3 with the back glued on...to my surprise the problem was solved.  I was hearing gross distortion with the horn frequencies. 

The Part 4 video compares the GP-9 (with sound down from 180 to about 120 or so, with a bit of horn distortion so later I have turned master volume down more) with the E-6.  It's an apple and oranges comparison in terms of different sound files, but interesting. 

Here goes my first attempt at YouTube posting.  I don't know how to merge them into one video, and doubt I have the software for that on my Windows 8.1.  If it doesn't work I'll edit as needed (I think it's working).

Part 1: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRQbmfpql3M

Part 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtETn7vrU8g

Part 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUWio5X4gxc

Part 4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kF26CG3SeI

 

My take overall is the LokSound and its speaker were a definite step forward.  The enclosed sugar cubes are better than that.  But the horn sound can't be turned up that high (not a problem in my smallish room), maybe because these speakers are rated 0.6 Watt continuous (1.0 max transient).  But I don't know if others' 1W speakers are advertising the continuous, but would hope so.  Anyway, my general take is the sugar cubes are preferred in tight spaces.  But when comparing to the E6 with dual 1.1" HiBass, I think they win (the bigger is better thing).  I see various larger "magnetic" types at DigiKey but don't know if any are appropriate for our use and could win against a conventional cone type in larger spaces.  And I don't know if I've got the "best" (or nearly so) sugar cubes (brand, etc) for their size.  It would be nice to be sure that I've got very good ones as the enclosure route is not a small effort, at least the first time.

I hope the videos work (clickable links, etc).  Sorry if this is long, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.     

      

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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