Hear me out on this one. In the February edition of Model Railroader there is an article in the DCC corner by Larry Puckett esentially saying that anyone who uses DC is just "fence sitting" and just waiting to plunge into DCC.
Not so. This is not a dig at DCC. I think DCC is great and have seen many impressive railroads, up close and on the Internet, that are just fine for the people who have them. Not for me. I used DC on my N Scale railroad and i like it just fine. This is not a cost issue or a grumpy old dude who doesn't like change. I just enjoy running the railroad on DC.
So to Larry. DC users are not crazy old uncles who are locked in an attic. DC is just fine for us. I understand that the magazine works closely with manufacturers and does promote products (airbrushes are another thing that's pushed,) but please don't assume everybody wants DCC. How about a DC corner in Model Railroader.
Hi!
I sure can see both sides (DC & DCC), and frankly was surprised the article was presented in such a biased manner.
I used DC on HO & N layouts from 1960 thru 2008, and had plenty of enjoyment out of them. With the building of a new HO layout, I decided to jump into DCC.
It certainly has its benefits, and I especially appreciate being able to run individual locos anytime and anyplace, and also the sounds of the locos, etc.
But all is not a bed of roses. DCC is significantly more expensive than DC, and can be much more complicated. DC is straightforward and requires only basic electrical knowledge to put together a decent layout. Said another way, I find it much more intuitive.
Don't misunderstand, I am very glad I went into DCC and enjoy it immensely.
But I just felt the article was written by "lobbyists" for the DCC manufacturers and sellers, and kind of "out of place" to me.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I don't know how many times I have repeated something about this that I stated a few years ago now: there is plenty of room in this hobby for a wide variety of interests, skillsets, and wallet thicknesses/credit cards.
DCC is getting old already; there are newer systems closer than the horizon. It has been around in one form or another for over 20 years if I have my facts right. AC and DC were around before DCC, and continue to provide fascination and enjoyment to a huge number of people in the Greater Toy Trains Hobby. I expect that if every AC/DC hobbyist upped and quit at midnight tonight, the hobby would shrink to about 40%-60% of its current numbers, as a SWAG.
Telling half of us that we are putting off an important growth or developmental step is just silly, and frankly, I can see how it would be quite unwelcome. In that respect, the DCC crowd who hold to that view could stand some growing of their own.
LION needs to run eight trains at one time, with no aditional operators. Trains must start and stop at their stations. DCC brings nothing to my table. I suppose I could spend a fortune getting a computer to operate my railroad. But I do not have the money.
But I did enjoy building my analog automation system. It is unique, and it is all mine! And it works. Trains can run all by themselves, and I and my visitors can watch them do so. All I have to do is to operate the interlocking plant at 242nd Street.
The only computer in the train room is used to play the music.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
west willow and laurelthere is an article in the DCC corner by Larry Puckett esentially saying that anyone who uses DC is just "fence sitting" and just waiting to plunge into DCC.
west willow and laurelSo to Larry. DC users are not crazy old uncles who are locked in an attic. DC is just fine for us.
You can interpret the article any way you want, but no, that isn't what he said.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
I am building a new layout but I am using my same two DC throttles which I have had since the 1990s. They are CMI Super Blue transformers with momentum and braking. They include walk around controllers which plug into phone jacks which are spread out along the layout. I usually operate alone so DC throttles with cab controlled blocks are easier for me because when I want to operate a different train I just flip a couple of switches instead of having to reprogram the controller again and again. I think DC transformers with walk around controllers are just as good or better than DCC for a home layout where there is only going to be one or two operators. If I have a third operator, I have a third power pack which is wired to operate the yard. Maybe I am stuck in my ways but if it works don't fix it.
Thank you all for the constructive comments. I run a medium sized layout on my own and trains come and go in a certain order, so i don't need to operate multiple trains at once. Also, i like the sounds of DCC while watching video's on the Internet but i think i would find it irritating on my own layout after awhile.
That being said, whatever you like using is fine. It's your layout and your choice. The point i was making about the article is not to assume everybody will enjoy the same approach.
west willow and laurelThe point i was making about the article is not to assume everybody will enjoy the same approach.
I think that goes without saying.
As long as I've been on forums, people have argued about DC vs. DCC, and it will continue on. Just like that whole thread on "it's my RR", the same holds true here. People will get what they like and run it at home and enjoy the hobby.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
West Willow & Laurel,
I got the same impression when I read DCC Corner. And, like you, I have no interest in converting to DCC. (Although I do recommend to people new to the hobby to strongly consider DCC)
I have several reasons for staying with DC:
1. Financial- I have 50-60 N scale locomotives many of them are 30 years old (or more) and I like to run them! I don't know if they could accept a decoder but I couldn't afford to do it anyway.
2. I enjoy the challenge of wiring for multiple train operation (current layout is designed for 5 train operation). There is something about all the different colored wires going every where that fascinates me.
3. I like flipping switches, turning knobs, etc.
4. I like old fashion control panels!
5. I love the smell of melting solder in the morning!
That being said, I do read the articles on DCC in MRR just to know more about the hobby, but I am definitely not "sitting on the fence".
Tim
I didn't take the article as a "resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" tone. Actually, I think the article was written for me (and those like me) who have been sitting on the fence. I have been researching DCC for a few years, and finally have begun to build a new layout. But was hesitating on pulling the trigger. Well, last week I received my first two decoders (one a simple plug in and one that will require some work), and today I should recieve my Power Cab. Thanks to all of you who have offered your advice on systems, I've taken your input seriously and changed my mind many times on what system to buy, so that I would have current needs fulfilled, as well as expandability.
However, DC is still very important, and I have some engines that will remain DC - and perhaps use a smaller section of the layout completely isolated for them. Manufacturers realize this and are making good products (MRC is still investing a lot in the DC world).
Either DC or DCC (or even AC for those of us who also model in three rail), model railroading offers so many hobbies and interests within the hobby.
Me, I am going dead rail!!!!!!!!!!! No wiring. Run DC now with a Train Engineer set up but have gotten the stuff to go dead rail for 4 engines.
I am also a DC user. Started HO 1950, two yrs. prior to that I was S-scale for about 3yrs, but was too toy like for my taste, so when I learned of HO, that's where I stayed and remained. I have a rather large layout, double track mainline with 3-cab control, with 3 MRC CM 20's, hand held's, usually run both mains and use the 3rd cab for switching industries. I do run DCC w/sound engines, but usually only when the Grandkids come over. I have nothing against DCC mind You, but I don't see any reason to change, at least not in my life time. Like someone already said, ''If it ain't broke, don't fix it''.
One of 3- control panels....excuse the dirt,,,been working on the whole area and redoing some trackwork and industries:
Take Care!
Frank
Billwiz"resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"
or in the case of this forum, "..., you will be moderated"
I'm all in favor of "to each his own, live and let live, etc", but it seems to me like a firm believer in the continued use of DC that will never convert to DCC, would only read a column called "DCC Corner" if he was looking for something to complain about.
Why would you expect to see anything other than a pro-DCC attitude in the "DCC Corner" column? For these reasons, I think it's entirely reasonable for the author to assume that a DC user reading a DCC column would indeed be "sitting on the fence".
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I have not read the article so I cannot comment on the accuracy of its tone, but I don't know why the author would assume that DC users are mainly people who are sitting on the fence.
I use DC to operate my nonsound locomotives, and a DCC system to operate the onboard sound locomotives. I am not "on the fence" with the DC/silent locomotives...I have no plans to change, because there is no advantage to running my nonsound locomotives with DCC. Not to mention the expense of replacing a perfectly good directional light board with a decoder.
This "no advantage" is based on how I operate my layout.
I have several locomotives operating in a session, but only one at a time. When one train comes onto the layout from staging, it switches its cars and then parks onto an unused spur to clear the main for the other train(s) that comes from staging (the rock/cement train that switches its loads for empties or another train that's passes through from one staging to the other). Since I am the only operator, it's easier for me to assign the cab to the proper loco by flipping a big toggle switch to power off/on the spur/staging tracks rather than to punch the little buttons on a DCC throttle (which I didn't always punch in correctly and had to redo.) Just like a real railroad, the loco that clears the main has to get onto the spur long before the other train enters the area (enough time for me to park the loco, then walk over to the other side of the layout). Both the DC and DCC systems are wireless.
I use the toggle switches to kill the track when operating the DCC/Sound locos too, rather than readdressing the cab. Its just easier. All are set to address 3.
I don't know if the article made the assumption that all modeler's operate their layouts the same, or all have interests in having the kind of layout where DCC would present a clear advantage as an operating system, but for me, it certainly is not an advantage for silent locos and I have no plans to change.
- Douglas
BroadwayLionBut I did enjoy building my analog automation system. It is unique, and it is all mine! And it works. Trains can run all by themselves, and I and my visitors can watch them do so.
Amen to that! It is all about what works for you. As well as what you have money tied into. If you do running with commuter and passenger trains as does the Lion, then DC will work very well for you as it did for me at one time. Now I do a lot of industrial switching and no roundy round, so for me DCC is the better way to go.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
A few thoughts:
Why would a DC user read the DCC column? Some of us are interested in all phases of the hobby, but that does not mean we want to be "talked down to" regarding our personal choices.
At various points in my long association with this hobby, I have helped a number of modelers with various aspects of their layouts, including DCC, dispite the fact that personally I am a die hard DC user.
I have a strong tech background, and am trained in electrial design, I understand a great deal about DCC - I'm not interested thank you, at least not for my current HO layout goals.
My DC system is way more complex than the user side of most any DCC system - but it includes detection, signaling, CTC dispatching, ATC, working interlockings, wireless radio throttles, multiple location turnout control and the option of both CTC control or walk around control.
I don't have any interest in onboard sound, I don't need consisting or speed matching, so DCC has little to offer that would be better than what I have.
Interestingly, my signaling/CTC/turnout control system will work with DC or DCC - but without DCC, it is considerably less expensive - especially considering the size of my layout and loco fleet - 120 locos x the average decoder price = more than my whole control system with signaling costs.
Model Railroader has always been "invested" in what is new - they are after all in the information business.
One did not have to read the article to get the "condesending tone" - the cover lead in and the article title said it all. Actually, the cover lead in "Benefits of DCC" would have been fine if it was not followed up by the "is it time to get off the fence?" title.
My answer - I'm not on the fence - I was on the fence 15 years ago - decided "no thank you" after extensive research, and I have kept up with DCC progress ever since, still not even back near the fence.
I'm way closer to the direct radio fence than the DCC fence - but I don't see that happening soon either.
The major point I have made for a decade or more is this - a person should consider their personal set of goals, skills, resources and interests in selecting a control system.
For many that best choice is DCC - but now after over 20 years, that still only accounts for about half the model train market.
I wonder if Model Railroader would publish an article called "The features and benefits of advanced cab control" or "MZL control revisited" (MZL was a highly intergrated DC system designed by Ed Ravenscroft and published in MR in a series of articles in the early 70's)?
I considered writing an article on my hybrid version of MZL with wireless throttles, in fact I have book documenting it about half done - but would they publish it? It does not drive the purchase of any of their advertisers products.
Sheldon
zstripe I am also a DC user. Started HO 1950, two yrs. prior to that I was S-scale for about 3yrs, but was too toy like for my taste, so when I learned of HO, that's where I stayed and remained. I have a rather large layout, double track mainline with 3-cab control, with 3 MRC CM 20's, hand held's, usually run both mains and use the 3rd cab for switching industries. I do run DCC w/sound engines, but usually only when the Grandkids come over. I have nothing against DCC mind You, but I don't see any reason to change, at least not in my life time. Like someone already said, ''If it ain't broke, don't fix it''. One of 3- control panels....excuse the dirt,,,been working on the whole area and redoing some trackwork and industries: Take Care! Frank
I run DCC so I do not have to do all of the wiring you show. Though I have to say that there are many DCC people that use all of the technical DCC stuff for every function that have wiring that looks like yours. I don't as every thing other then the engines running is by hand analog.
I just can not imagine spending all of the time and money for DC, to do what is so easy and inexpensive with DCC.
And I have done the DC wiring route and it was a real pain for so little control. If not for DCC I would never have gotten back in the hobby after thirty years.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Why would a DC user read the DCC column?
Why would a DC user read the DCC column?
Sheldon,
Is this a recurring column in the mag? I've been reading MR for over 30 years and I never noticed, at least not regularly that I remember. I'm not kidding.
I've read DCC manuals to help program certain things for what I want locos to do. I've researched it to help decide if DCC would benefit me, and it doesn't as a control system, but I've never read recurring articles about DCC as a general topic of interest.
As you said, some folks have different interests within the hobby itself.
Lake zstripe I am also a DC user. Started HO 1950, two yrs. prior to that I was S-scale for about 3yrs, but was too toy like for my taste, so when I learned of HO, that's where I stayed and remained. I have a rather large layout, double track mainline with 3-cab control, with 3 MRC CM 20's, hand held's, usually run both mains and use the 3rd cab for switching industries. I do run DCC w/sound engines, but usually only when the Grandkids come over. I have nothing against DCC mind You, but I don't see any reason to change, at least not in my life time. Like someone already said, ''If it ain't broke, don't fix it''. One of 3- control panels....excuse the dirt,,,been working on the whole area and redoing some trackwork and industries: Take Care! Frank I run DCC so I do not have to do all of the wiring you show. Though I have to say that there are many DCC people that use all of the technical DCC stuff for every function that have wiring that looks like yours. I don't as every thing other then the engines running is by hand analog. I just can not imagine spending all of the time and money for DC, to do what is so easy and inexpensive with DCC. And I have done the DC wiring route and it was a real pain for so little control. If not for DCC I would never have gotten back in the hobby after thirty years.
LOL, That control panel is thirty yrs. old, where was DCC then, still in the works? The wiring in that is a piece of cake, compared to a hybrid color TV, home built 5'' CRT Oscilliscope, which I had to build for school. When I got out of Vietnam in 68', I went back to my full time job I had when drafted, but also went to school full time for Electronic Tech/ Machine Design, but stayed in Transportation, because back then that is where the money was and I had a wife and child at the time, so my job offered the best insurance coverage for my family. I graduated my courses, but continued in Transportation and repaired TV"s, stereo's, CB's on the side with my best friend. Wiring is simple, if you follow a plan and keep it neat, plus I enjoy it!
When I can get a good quality full-function decoder for ~$5 I might get interested in DCC, but with a large fleet of powered traction models, the price has to be quite low for me to be able to afford converting to DCC.
Doughless ATLANTIC CENTRAL Why would a DC user read the DCC column? Sheldon, Is this a recurring column in the mag? I've been reading MR for over 30 years and I never noticed, at least not regularly that I remember. I'm not kidding. I've read DCC manuals to help program certain things for what I want locos to do. I've researched it to help decide if DCC would benefit me, and it doesn't as a control system, but I've never read recurring articles about DCC as a general topic of interest. As you said, some folks have different interests within the hobby itself.
Yes, DCC Corner has been an ongoing column in Model Railroader for years! It had been written by Mike Polsgrove (spelling) and was taken over by Mr. Puckett as of the February 2015 issue. I don't know that it has been in every issue; but, I believe it was considered a regular column.
I guess that fact that you are not a DCC guy would make it easy enough to overlook this colomn in the magazine.
NP2626 Yes, DCC Corner has been an ongoing column in Model Railroader for years! It had been written by Mike Polsgrove (spelling) and was taken over by Mr. Puckett as of the February 2015 issue. I don't know that it has been in every issue; but, I believe it was considered a regular column. I guess that fact that you are not a DCC guy would make it easy enough to overlook this colomn in the magazine.
Yes, DCC Corner has been an ongoing column in Model Railroader for years! It had been written by Mike Polsgrove (spelling) and
was taken over by Mr. Puckett as of the February 2015 issue. I don't know that it has been in every issue; but, I believe it was considered a regular column.
Thanks. I do vaguely recall such a column, but I didn't know if it was regular each month or what.
Personally, I'm not a DC guy either. I don't particularly care for electronics of any sort. Just not interested. I know enough about electronics to operate the trains the way I want to, which is the goal. Its a great hobby will the potential for all sorts of "subinterests" within it, but electronics...either DC or DCC..is just not that interesting to me. I come onto this part of the forum when I see discussions about sound decoder installations, questions, or reviews, etc.
Or in the case of this thread, to offer my two cents about the thinking behind my operating system and explain that the goal is to have the trains run the way I want them to by the simplest way of doing it, as I see it. And to offer the notion that there are probably many modelers who aren't sitting on the fence at all, after carefully weighing the benefits for them.
ATLANTIC CENTRALFor many that best choice is DCC - but now after over 20 years, that still only accounts for about half the model train market.
I don't necessarily dispute it, but I'm curious where you got the data to support the assertion that DCC only accounts for half of the market. Are you speaking in dollars or customers?
I would expect though, if you looked only at the segment of the market where realistic multi-train operation is a priority, that the DCC penetration is much higher - especially if you further narrow the segment to layouts started in the last 10-15 years.
You are clearly a "one percenter" based on your understanding of MRR control, roll-your-own or otherwise. While you are both willing and able to create something of the complexity your control system represents, the other 99% of us are either unwilling, unable or both. We are the target market for DCC.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI wonder if Model Railroader would publish an article called "The features and benefits of advanced cab control" or "MZL control revisited"
I don't wonder at all. While they may have leaned that way in the past, MR is not today a 1% magazine. All of those have gone out of business. I believe that what many consider to be supporting the advertisers is really an honest effort to support and promote the hobby. If you had a job like that, what would do? By dedicating a monthly column to DCC, it's clear that they believe DCC is critical to the success of the hobby. I agree with them.
carl425 ATLANTIC CENTRAL For many that best choice is DCC - but now after over 20 years, that still only accounts for about half the model train market. I don't necessarily dispute it, but I'm curious where you got the data to support the assertion that DCC only accounts for half of the market. Are you speaking in dollars or customers? I would expect though, if you looked only at the segment of the market where realistic multi-train operation is a priority, that the DCC penetration is much higher - especially if you further narrow the segment to layouts started in the last 10-15 years. You are clearly a "one percenter" based on your understanding of MRR control, roll-your-own or otherwise. While you are both willing and able to create something of the complexity your control system represents, the other 99% of us are either unwilling, unable or both. We are the target market for DCC. ATLANTIC CENTRAL I wonder if Model Railroader would publish an article called "The features and benefits of advanced cab control" or "MZL control revisited" I don't wonder at all. While they may have leaned that way in the past, MR is not today a 1% magazine. All of those have gone out of business. I believe that what many consider to be supporting the advertisers is really an honest effort to support and promote the hobby. If you had a job like that, what would do? By dedicating a monthly column to DCC, it's clear that they believe DCC is critical to the success of the hobby. I agree with them.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL For many that best choice is DCC - but now after over 20 years, that still only accounts for about half the model train market.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I wonder if Model Railroader would publish an article called "The features and benefits of advanced cab control" or "MZL control revisited"
Respectfully, considering only those interested "realistic multi train operation" smacks of the "who is a REAL, or serious, model railroader" convestation. But my layout supports realistic multi train operation and the operators do not have to flip ANY block toggles - they just have to obey the CTC signals and control the speed and direction of their train - just like you do with DCC.
And, my layout is also designed for industrial switching, and the other extreme - simple display loop running of multiple trains.
When signaling and CTC are added to DCC, it is just as complex as my system - only more expensive - for features I don't need.
You may be happy without signaling, I consider it essential to modeling a Class I railroad set in the 1950's.
As to my figures on how many people use DCC, or don't - it comes from a long observation, conversations with shop owners, random surveys on this forum, and a personal count of modelers I know.
Dollars spend is of no value because it is likely that those who do not spend money on DCC, spend that money on other aspects of the hobby.
What is critical to the success of this hobby is a return to modeling and a better chain of supply - but that is two different topics.
ATLANTIC CENTRALRespectfully, considering only those interested "realistic multi train operation" smacks of the "who is a REAL, or serious, model railroader" convestation.
That is not at all my intent. Any discussion of a control system is only relevant in the context of what kind of operation one is trying to control. You would not recommend your control system for a loop around the Christmas tree any more than I would recommend DCC.
Respectfully, accusing me of trying to define "REAL or serious" smacks of attempting to discredit my argument by disparaging me personally.
carl425 I would expect though, if you looked only at the segment of the market where realistic multi-train operation is a priority, that the DCC penetration is much higher - especially if you further narrow the segment to layouts started in the last 10-15 years.
Yes, I have found that to be true from my observations. All of the layouts in my area (save one) have been DCC for many years. All of the OPS based layouts switched over in the early 2000s or earlier to DCC. I don't think DC is going anywhere, but DCC is the dominant control system in our area - especially for OPs based layouts.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
carl425 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Respectfully, considering only those interested "realistic multi train operation" smacks of the "who is a REAL, or serious, model railroader" convestation. That is not at all my intent. Any discussion of a control system is only relevant in the context of what kind of operation one is trying to control. You would not recommend your control system for a loop around the Christmas tree any more than I would recommend DCC. Respectfully, accusing me of trying to define "REAL or serious" smacks of attempting to discredit my argument by disparaging me personally.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Respectfully, considering only those interested "realistic multi train operation" smacks of the "who is a REAL, or serious, model railroader" convestation.
Well my intent was not to attack you personally, but your post did have a little bit of a "tone" as to imply that those who have built ops based layouts in the last 10-15 years are somehow more relevant to the discussion.
Actually, I would agree that most small scale modelers with a serriouis interest in group operations have converted to DCC, especially if they have built a layout in the last 10-15 years. Most of my ops focused friends have gone DCC, many with complex computer based signaling and CTC.
But this is big annd diverse hobby. And it is getting more diverse even if it is not growing in numbers. There is more of a casual or collector small scale (HO and N) segment than ever before.
And the larger scales which saw massive popularity increases in the 90's are at least holding their own. In scales larger than HO, DCC is the minority control choice, likely less than 20%. Lionel and MTH have their systems, and in large scale the various direct radio systems dominate by a long shot.
In HO DCC may well have surpased the 50% mark, likely around 70% by now. I suspect DCC is easily at 50% in N scale, but HO and N are not the begining or end of model trains.
I will quickly agree that if you want an operations based layout, but you are not going to do signaling, DCC is a good choice.
DCC assumes the operator focus is on being the engineer - I also like to be the disaptcher or railroad president at times. When I do want the "engineer" experiance, my radio throttles give me all that I need.
Again it gets back to the idea that one size does NOT fit all, and that control systems can be taylored around specific goals and needs.
Actually, my Chrisdtmas tree loop of On30 is controlled by an Aristo Wireless Radio Throttle just like my HO layout.
trainnut1250 I don't think DC is going anywhere, but DCC is the dominant control system in our area - especially for OPs based layouts. Guy
To the bolded...I know what you're trying to say, so it may be just semantics...but I would call those layouts a "club style" of layout. One that supports numerous trains, several operators, possibly even a person who's sole responibility is distpatching.
My layout cannot support more than one operator..I want it that way...but it is definitely operations oriented. Enough trains to keep one operator busy, with my attention being focused upon the one train that is moving at any one time. That may not be a popular way to approach the hobby...but I can't be the only one who chooses that style of layout.