I just picked up a new BLI Paragon 2 steam engine, and I love it.
I am experiencing one problem though.
As I reduce the speed of the locomotive, each time I hit the speed button to reduce the speed one step, the chuff sound cuts out for a moment and then comes back on.
Anyone else having this problem? Any solution?
Rich
Alton Junction
Is this one of those deals where the loco thinks it is momentarily not under load and is, in effect, coasting?
maxman Is this one of those deals where the loco thinks it is momentarily not under load and is, in effect, coasting?
I had a different problem with my Paragon 2 mikado, but it was the chuff sensor intermittently cutting out. I sent it in and they replaced it, but I'm not sure it doesn't still do it some. It's not a dirty track problem.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
richhotrain maxman Is this one of those deals where the loco thinks it is momentarily not under load and is, in effect, coasting? I don't know. I saw your thread where the chuff stopped working, but this is different in that the chuff sound cuts out each time I reduce the speed step, then comes on again.
I don't know. I saw your thread where the chuff stopped working, but this is different in that the chuff sound cuts out each time I reduce the speed step, then comes on again.
That thread had to do with a bad chuff sensor.
A friend of mine has some of the Broadway locos and the chuff cuts out on them momentarily sometimes. In his case I think it is supposed to represent the engineer backing off on the throttle. I don't particularly like that effect and find it distracting.
Not to say that yours is doing the same thing. I'm just throwing that out there as a possible reason.
maxman A friend of mine has some of the Broadway locos and the chuff cuts out on them momentarily sometimes. In his case I think it is supposed to represent the engineer backing off on the throttle. I don't particularly like that effect and find it distracting. Not to say that yours is doing the same thing. I'm just throwing that out there as a possible reason.
It may be, as you say, an intended backing off on the throttle by the engineer.
It is noticeable, it is annoying, and if it is intended, BLI ought to say so in the manual.
I plan to call BLI tomorrow to ask about it.
Meanwhile, I hope to hear from others, if any, who experience the same problem.
I guess a lot of people have never been around a real steam engine. When the engineer closes the throttle even only one notch, if the engine is not under a heavy load the chuff sound will decrease momentarily, so the BLI sounds are correct.
cacole I guess a lot of people have never been around a real steam engine. When the engineer closes the throttle even only one notch, if the engine is not under a heavy load the chuff sound will decrease momentarily, so the BLI sounds are correct.
As a kid, I was around steam locomotives back in the late 1940s and early 1950s, but that doesn't mean that so many years later I can recall the presence or absence of chuff sounds. With all due respect, cacole, I don't think that comment was warranted.
BLI and just about all the sound decoder designers are attempting to replicate locomotive sounds as closely as the electronics and technology will allow—balanced, of course, by cost.
I have a few dozen BLI steam locomotives both with Paragon and QSI sound. They both rely on BEMF to tell the amplifier/chuff circuitry when to produce a heavy load or a light load or no load. The "sound-o-power" or whatever they call it on the throttle increase load grates on my ears just a bit but I try to tune it out.
For that moment when the inertia of the train is actually pushing the motor the current draw goes to zero, the sound circuitry has to respond accordingly, as the motor load equalizes, then begins to draw a load again, the sounds of the chuff or exhaust as I prefer, should begin to gradually increase.
I agree with cacole that in some instances the throttle gets closed pretty quickly and the exhaust will fall nearly silent. On a long descending grade, with the reverse lever (cutoff) set properly and the throttle cracked open very slightly the locomotive can be nearly silent.
Lots depended on how much the engineer cared or bothered to keep his cutoff and throttle balanced to keep the side rods from clanking or not when drifting. Same goes while under load. Some engineers had the knack (and the fireman was happier for it) and others working the very same engine, fought with slipping drivers, using too much water and making the fireman's trip miserable.
All I'm getting at is these manufacturers making sound decoders are using their proprietory sound circuits (remember the MTH-BLI lawsuit) to try to replicate real world locomotive sounds.
There has to be some compromise somewhere and those few missing exhaust blasts are it. I think it sounds pretty neat. Paragon, IMHO, is not exactly the cutting-edge in steam sound decoders (nor their motor boat diesel sounds) but they are OK. TCS is getting pretty darned close with their WOWsound (again, my judgement)
Just my 2¢ but I hope it clears up a few things for you Rich.
Happy Modeling, Ed
gmpullman Just my 2¢ but I hope it clears up a few things for you Rich. Happy Modeling, Ed
I made a short video so that others can see and hear what I am talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juhOiDDp7Bo&feature=youtu.be
Is this normal?
Yep! That's what mine do. Again, it's Paragon's way of "enhancing" the exhaust sounds based on the signals the sound circuitry is recieving from the BEMF of the motor.
Personally, I don't mind the cut-out as demonstrated in your well done video. What I mentioned earlier that bugs me is the "boost" that the exhaust sound makes if you give a little too much throttle or accelerate quickly since the sound "jumps" into loud mode then jumps back into normal mode. BLI calls this "trick" Sound-O-Power or some such catchy bling.
I recall reading about sound files. They are made up of three segments. Attack, sustain and decay as I recall. Every sound decoder is loaded with x number of sound files. By nature, a steam locomotive exhaust alone has a nearly infinite variety of sounds from working hard at startup, drivers slipping, a lighter train vs. heavy and especially, the cut-off setting which is "dialed-in" as the engineer sees fit or is warranted by all these variables, i.e. "hookin' 'er up" as the train gains momentum and speed. The "stack talk" is continually changing. Even the atmospheric conditions will change the sound. Warm, wet day=softer, muffled sounds. Cold dry day, she really barks.
I imagine you could reproduce all these sound variables but I'd imagine the decoder would be the size of a breadbox and run somewhere north of $5,000?
Everything we do as modelers involve compromise. Cost/size/popularity (will it sell) level of current technology, selective compression... you get the idea.
BLI's Paragon exhaust chuff is, of course, a compromise. The designers tried to get the acceleration / deceleration of a full-sized steam locomotive and pack it into a chip smaller than an m&m (not the whole board, just the sound chip.)
I have not delved into the finer points of playing with P2 CVs to see if I can adjust some of these minor annoyances out, or smoothe edges a bit as it were.
IF time and money were of no concern I would probably take out all my Paragon decoders and install TCS WOWsound in their place. I did this with a few BLI BlueLine engines I had and couldn't be happier with their performance.
I'll be curious to see what BLI does with the upcoming Pennsy S1 Turbine
Have fun with your new engine! Ed
gmpullmanYep! That's what mine do.
Yes, exactly what I was trying to describe. Doesn't mean that I like it. Might not be so apparent if the chuff volume was lowered some to begin with.
It's probably made more obvious by your use of the incremement/decrement speed buttons instead of the throttle wheel. If you set CV3 and, particularly in this case, CV4 to some non-zero amount, you won;t need to change speed one step at a time, you could throttle back some, and the chuffs will quiet, and the loco will gradually slow to the new speed and the chuffs will pick up again to maintain the new speed. That's pretty much how it's supposed to work.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
OK, apparently this is how the chuff sound is supposed to work, so that is a relief because I feared that my new loco had a flaw.
I don't recall my other BLI steamers doing that, so I will be listening closer to the sound. This is my first Paragon 2 in that my other BLI steamers are all from the original Paragon series.
Randy, thanks for your input as well. I will play around with the CV3 and CV4 settings.
Edit Note: The adjustment of values in CV3 and CV4 had no effect on the performance of the chuff sound.
Are you using the decremement speed button, or the wheel? The problem, I think, is that with hitting the decremenet key, yoiu get the chuff drop until it reaches the next lowest speed step, then it comes back on full, then you're hitting the decrement again, so chuff drops, then comes back on, etc. This is what is sounding wierd, probbaly would sound wierd to me as well. If you used the wheel plus some momentum in CV4 to decrease speed, you'd reduce to the desired speed, not one step at a time and wait for the loco, and the chuffs would drop for the momentum duration until the loco got to the new speed - one longer period of reduced chuffs during deceleration rather than individual fits and starts.
Randy, I had been using the decrement speed button,but the same thing happens with the wheel.
When you use the wheel does it cut out and back in constantly as it changes steps, or does it cut out once then comes back? Isn;t there also a Dec 10 button? What if you make a major speed change like that, with momentum set to something non-zero? Does it cut in and out 10 times for the 10 speed step reduction, or does it cut once, gradually slow, then come back?
Also, if it's not, try using 128 speed steps. NCE seems to like to default to 28 for some reason. 128 give MUCH smoother control.
rrinker When you use the wheel does it cut out and back in constantly as it changes steps, or does it cut out once then comes back? Isn;t there also a Dec 10 button? What if you make a major speed change like that, with momentum set to something non-zero? Does it cut in and out 10 times for the 10 speed step reduction, or does it cut once, gradually slow, then come back? Also, if it's not, try using 128 speed steps. NCE seems to like to default to 28 for some reason. 128 give MUCH smoother control. --Randy
Regarding the wheel, with each rotation, large or small, the chuff sound cuts out.
The ProCab throttle makes it pretty easy to select 128 speed steps, and I have tried it but, with each decrement the chuff cuts out.
There is no escaping it, so I will learn to live with it, but I don't like it.
write 60 to cv's 200 and 201. Sounds like the chuff threshold is not right.
This reply was posted under a different topic.
BLI P3 PRR J1 light off with first whistle, direction change sound, acceleration chuff volume
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/282684.aspx
While this post is valuable information and should be left in this thread, I think it should have its own thread started as it's not "Paragon 2" specific any more, and anyone browsing for information even after Kalmbach gets its finger out and fixes community search might not find it here.
I suggest a thread title that specifically references Paragon 3 and the issues being addressed; others can then add their own experience or 'kinks' or ask for advice.