Power management strategy

[lifeontheranch]

Have a read of this post: http://www.lkorailroad.com/lighting-system-operational/

There are additional related posts that can be found under the layout lighting category.

[carl425]

rrinker

relays are fine

I found a 30-amp rated contactor on Amazon for $10 so I decided to go for the overkill.  You never know when you might need to hook up an arc welder to assemble the steel benchwork or something like that.

[rrinker]

 Mostly the difference is that a contactor is made for higher loads - real high power versions will even have arc deflectors to direct the arc that inevitably occurs when you switch high current loads. For your layout lighting, relays are fine. Just look at the contact rating and don't exceed that current on any given circuit. In my case, I want a central switch to control all of the 120V AC power to my layout room - multiple 15 amp circuits.

                 --Randy

[carl425]

rrinker

...so I am looking in to a remote contactor

This post inspired my eureka moment and gave me the solution I was looking for.  I'll put one of the 5 amp "LCD" power supplies referenced above on my only switched outlet and run a 16AWG bus around the layout.  I can then just tap the bus at any location where I need to switch the AC and use that tap to throw the "remote connector" (how are these different from relays?) and switch on the other devices.  Simple, easy, cheap.  What else could I ask for?

I see some folks have included 16 vdc in the layout power distribution scheme. For future reference, what devices would require something other than 12 volts?  My layout is in the mountains of southwestern VA so I won't need street lights.

[hon30critter]

Rich and MisterBeasley:

Thanks for your answers. I will have to do a bit of homework to figure out how to use the new dedicated layout circuit and the existing lighting/outlet circuit(s) to best advantage.

Dave

[richhotrain]

A very good strategy, Randy.

Rich

[rrinker]

 Here's my strategy. My basement, like most rooms in any house, has too few outlets for railroad purposes. So, as part of gutting the (really ugly) paneling and redoing the basement, I will have an electrician run a subpanel off my main box, which is located in the garage. Since running from the garage into the basement invovles penetrating fire walls, I will elt a professional do it. As I finish the basement with new walls, I will make the runs from the subpanel myself. I really don't want to run multiple lines up to the top of the stairs and then back down so I can have a common shutoff right at the basemetn stairs, so I am looking in to a remote contactor, so I can just switch everything in the box on and off with just one low voltage switch. Since there are 3 entrances to the basement, The lights in the aisle spaces will be controlled by a seperate circuit with a switch in each location, that way it will be easy to light your way coming in and out of the house via the basement. All layout lighting and power, including any workbench outlets, would be cut off by the contactor circuit.

                --Randy

[richhotrain]

Good point, Mr. B.

A dedicated circuit is best for a layout, especially a larger one.

Or, at least nothing more than room lighting on the same circuit.

Rich

[MisterBeasley]

One thing to avoid is any intermittent heavy load on the same circuit as your layout, particularly if you're running DCC.  These are things like air conditioners, space heaters and refrigerators.  I had an old AC unit in another room that ended up on the same circuit, and when it kicked in sometimes it would reset my DCC system.

[Renegade1c]

I have 3 switches for the layout. Two are for lighting (Lower level and Upper Level) and the third is for layout power. I have a 10 amp power supply driving my digitrax command station and booster. I also have an  old 5 amp 12 volt computer power supply that i converted to run the accessory bus on the layout. the computer power supply is nice because it puts out both 5 and 12 volts. I have two buss lines (one for each voltage) going around the layout. I did come up with a layout color code. Black and Red are DCC bus wires, Orange and Green are 12 volt accessory bus and Blue and Green are 5 volt accessory bus. 

I only have a 15 amp breaker which is 1800 watts. What really eats up power on the layout is the 16x 23 Watt flourecent fixtures. that is 370 watts. . The overhead lights happen to be on the same breaker too which is really annoying. That is another 315 watts.  So lighting alone takes up 685 watts. The layout itself only takes up about 200 watts. so I am well under half on my circuit breaker. 

[richhotrain]

MisterBeasley

 

 

Dave asked:

Can I ask your opinions on how many amps (120v) do you think my future train room will require?

 

 

You'll be fine.  Trains don't use much real power.  The real limit is power, measured in watts.  20 amps at 120 volt is 2400 watts.  That power supply right above is 4 amps at 12 volts, or only 48 watts.  Your NCE power will be 5 amps at about 14 volts, or 70 watts.  A train layout takes no more power than a couple of light bulbs.

EDIT: You see?  Great minds really do think alike.

 

Mr. B, no one has ever doubted that you and I are two great minds.

Rich

[MisterBeasley]

Dave asked:

Can I ask your opinions on how many amps (120v) do you think my future train room will require?

You'll be fine.  Trains don't use much real power.  The real limit is power, measured in watts.  20 amps at 120 volt is 2400 watts.  That power supply right above is 4 amps at 12 volts, or only 48 watts.  Your NCE power will be 5 amps at about 14 volts, or 70 watts.  A train layout takes no more power than a couple of light bulbs.

EDIT: You see?  Great minds really do think alike.

[richhotrain]

hon30critter

I hope the OP doesn't mind me asking a related question.

Can I ask your opinions on how many amps (120v) do you think my future train room will require? The layout will be approx. 10' x 23' and I plan on using LED room lighting and a lot of LED structure/street/vehicle lighting. I am using an NCE PowerCab which I will boost to 5 amps just so I can run consists with all engines powered and with sound, plus lighted passenger cars and cabooses. There will be approx. 35 tortoise machines.

There is a dedicated 20 amp circuit there now plus basic room lighting. Is that enough or will I need more power?

I know there are many variables involved but I would just like to hear what your experiences have been and what your recommendations are.

Thanks

Dave

 

A 20 amp circuit can handle up to 2,400 watts of power without tripping.

That is how I always judge the need for household power.  Same applies for a model railroad.

Rich

[MisterBeasley]

I've got a few supplies like this one:

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/ps-1241/12vdc-4.16a-power-supply/1.html

It's a bit over 4 amps.

[hon30critter]

I hope the OP doesn't mind me asking a related question.

Can I ask your opinions on how many amps (120v) do you think my future train room will require? The layout will be approx. 10' x 23' and I plan on using LED room lighting and a lot of LED structure/street/vehicle lighting. I am using an NCE PowerCab which I will boost to 5 amps just so I can run consists with all engines powered and with sound, plus lighted passenger cars and cabooses. There will be approx. 35 tortoise machines.

There is a dedicated 20 amp circuit there now plus basic room lighting. Is that enough or will I need more power?

I know there are many variables involved but I would just like to hear what your experiences have been and what your recommendations are.

Thanks

Dave

[Hobbez]

I dumped all the outlet transformers a long time ago for 12v and 16v busses and exchanged them for good quality DC train power packs that I had left over from my Pre-DCC days.  I use a pair of tech 6's to power the accessory busses now.  I just turn them up until the LED's light and tape the knob in place. 

[rrinker]

 Something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LCD-12V-5A-AC-Power-Supply-Adapter-DC-12-Volt-5-Amp-60W-/201168939185?pt=Laptop_Adapters_Chargers&hash=item2ed69a68b1

I have a bunch of these, and similar ones. All around the same price, some even cheaper. You can find similar ones with 15V AC output instead of 12V DC, if you have some things that need higher voltage or AC.

                --Randy

 

[carl425]

MisterBeasley

Power supplies with power cords are better than wall-warts

Thanks for the reply.  Got a specific power supply to recommend?

[carl425]

Thanks Guy!

trainnut1250

I used them for years and finally got tired of replacing them all the time and went to better supplies.

Do you have a specific supply to recommend?

trainnut1250

I look to save time and create simplicity in the wiring practices and by using quality components to reduce the amount of failures and trouble-shooting necessary.

Amen to that - my sentiment exactly!

[trainnut1250]

Carl, 

I have most of the power requirements that you have listed.  I have the lights on their own circuit controllable by a switch at the door.  I also have the outlets controllable by a switch at the door as well (make sure you get a beefy switch rated at the correct amps).  There is the DCC buss around the layout along with a three wire buss for accessories: 12VDC+, 12VDC- and ground wire (motors and LEDS).  I also have a partial 16VAC buss for certain accessories.

The DCC system and power busses are on power strips connected to the switched outlets.  As for power supplies, I would recommend spending some money and buy regulated switching power supplies rated at several amps for your accessories buss.  Wall warts don’t run at the same voltage as they load up and they are very susceptible to over loads and burn outs.  I used them for years and finally got tired of replacing them all the time and went to better supplies.  This also avoids having that “sea of wall warts” all over the place to supply the necessary amps as you expand the loads on the system.

As with any wiring questions, always defer to an expert (not me) when figuring amp loads and proper equipment for 110VAC wiring.  This is especially important when figuring lighting loads – more amps than you think!!!

As for what I would do differently, not too much.  The system is pretty complex, but what I (and you) want requires some complexity.  I look to save time and create simplicity in the wiring practices and by using quality components to reduce the amount of failures and trouble-shooting necessary.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Guy

[MisterBeasley]

I have a hundred square feet of layout plus some more staging, and that too will have scenery over it and some sceniced parts at the ends.  Right now, I have two outlet strips with switches, which takes care of everything on the layout.  Room lights are completely separate, on dimmers.  I've also got a floor lamp and a desk lamp I move around for additional light on projects and for photography.

Avoid too many wall-warts.  Power supplies with power cords are better than wall-warts, first because they usually put out more power, and second because they don't crowd each other out on the outlet strip.  But, I also found an outlet strip which is has two rows of outlets, widely spaced, just for plugging in a bunch of wall-warts.

I standardized on 16-volt incandescent bulbs for scenery.  This is also the voltage rating of Walthers streetlights, which I have a bunch of.  I run these at 12 volts to give a softer light and increase bulb life.  With the exception of a few specialty items, I run almost everything but the trains on 12 volts.

Why, oh why, did Walthers make their traffic light controller to run on 18 volts?

I run 3 wires for my 12-volt bus beneath the layout.  The blue wire is common, and white is for the structures.  Yellow is for streetlights and other lighting with non-replaceable bulbs.  Each of these sub-buses has a toggle switch on a panel, so I can do night ops with buildings lit but the streetlights off if I want.  Others use several such buses, so they can light parts of town or even different rooms of buildings.

[cmrproducts]

carl425

With my current layout - I was lucky and had a NEW basement to begin with.

I was able to handle all of the work needed (I am in the building profession) .

I insulated the walls and put drywall up.

Surface mounted metal conduit around the walls at 18" off the floor with 2 sets of outlets - Switched and Constant on.

The electrical lights were set up with switches at the entrance to the room and they were set below the height of the layout (pre calculated from Layout Plan).

The lights have 8 switches (covering an area of 25 x 75) so I only have to have lights on in the area I am working in at the momnet.

The Lighting circuits are Outlets in the ceiling (again in Metal Conduit) and this allows the hanging flouresent lights to be moved where they need to be not where the outlet boxes are.

A drop ceiling was installed to stop dust.

I have rugs on the floor to stop the dust.

The big thing is having people in the Busines and getting throwaways for FREE!

I worked with a Electrical Contractor - He got me hundreds of Floursent Lights for nothing - as every remodel job - ALL Lights get trashed and new is installed.

Another contractor was tearing down an old building with all relitevely new Drop Ceilings in the building - got it all FREE for the taking!

We got the OSB pieces form the Modular Home builders - tons of it over the years (as most everyone building layout ended up with the stuff from me) for the sub base for the Layouts.

Same went with the Pink/Blue foam - as much as we could haul out of the dumpster - the contractors were glad we did - LESS they had to pay to haul it away!

Just have to be friends with a lot of people.

And how did I meet these prople - from work - MRR CLUB - NMRA Div meetings - HOBBY SHOPs.

Every Modeler has a REAL JOB and knowing just what those JOBs are gets you one step closer to knowing their friends - which are the ones in the Electrical/Constuction/Etc. businesses. ;-)

BOB H - Clarion, PA

[carl425]

Trying to figure out how to supply and control all the different power requirements for the layout/train room is making my head hurt.  I looking for a strategic approach for all of this.

I assume most everybody has all of this, but just in case here's what I need to supply, and the characteristics that I would like to see in the finished solution.

1. DCC system
2. Detection boards (distributed)
3. Switch machine driver boards (also distributed)
4. Layout lighting (I'm thinking LED's for their long life and low heat)
5. Structure lights (also LED's)
6. Computer for JMRI
7. Distributed panels for JMRI
8. Whatever I forgot (or whatever "must have" scomes along later)

Goals:

1. One switch to power up everything layout related
2. Overide for layout lighting in case I decide to try night operations
3. Minimum complexity
4. Lowest reasonable cost (that includes some value for my time)
5. Expandability
6. Easy - minimum parts, minimum work

How do you handle all of this?  How do you wish you had handled it?