LOCO_GUY ....I moved to DCC pretty quickly as DC has it's limitations and I spent hours getting around them with fancy wiring and isolated turnouts etc. Then I woke up and decided DCC IS FOR ME!
Yeah, DC does have limitations, but even those are outside my needs or even beyond my scope of interest. I'm the lone operator of a point-to-point-to-point layout, with a single track main with passing sidings. My layout has lots of grades and curves, so doubleheading is necessary on all but the shortest trains. I'm modelling the '30s, so no working headlights needed, and I don't do night operations - I spend too much time detailing cars and locos, etc., etc. to want to hide things in the dark. As for sound, almost 40 years working in a steel mill leaves sound not on my list of "wants".
However, I did suggest that Jim go with DCC if he wanted to operate more than one train at a time, even though he expressed a disinterest in sound.
I apologise if I came off sounding like a big proponent of DC and a DCC naysayer. My point was that either method can offer an enjoyable model railroading experience depending on an individual's tastes and needs. I am so satisfied with my simple DC set-up* that even if someone were to offer to convert of all of my locomotives to DCC, with all the bells and whistles, for free and to do that work without altering the appearance of my locos, it would not interest me at all. Heck, even if I were offered money to allow such a conversion, I would turn it down. I don't disagree that DCC has lots of potential (much of it untapped by many who use it), but it offers nothing I want that I don't already have.
*
Wiring doesn't get much simpler than that in the photo above. It will soon power about 230' of main line (currently about 180'). There's easily that amount of track again in staging yards, passing sidings and industrial tracks. I have run over a dozen locos at a time (grandkids like to see them chasing one another - the layout does have an optional run-through capability). Power is off the AC side of a ControlMaster 20, with train control through a walkaround PWM throttle - same type of control as DCC throttles, I'm told.
Wayne
Doctor Wayne, I must agree with you - I had an erie-built PA unit from one source and an erie-built PB from another. But when put on the layout the PB unit was "slightly slower" but both ran together just fine and could haul almost any amount of cars. Having said that, I moved to DCC pretty quickly as DC has it's limitations and I spent hours getting around them with fancy wiring and isolated turnouts etc. Then I woke up and decided DCC IS FOR ME!
I think I mentioned earlier in this post that I picked up a Bachmann Thunder Chief DCC and Sound for just $84 - that was for the full factory sealed train set. That's why I think someone could "try it and see" without breaking the bank. I know the Bachmann starter train set might not have all the features of NCE powercab. But I tried the Bachmann set and decided to go with a powercab so I could program CV's. The powercab cost me $150 - almost twice the cost of my train set. But if you have doubts about which way to go - I think pick up a cheapie DCC and Sound train set and decide if its worth going the whole DCC hog.
I have no illusions DCC is the way to go - it adds another dimension to the experience - for me anyhow.
Chris.
Loco Guy - is a state of mind - not an affinity to locomotives.
Sit back and enjoy your track...
KyleI have tried running my locomotives (DC) together, but I am worried that I might have damaged the gears a bit. The only ones that run somewhat well together are an Athearn RTR GP40-2 and GP38-2 because they are exactly the same except for the shell.
If your trains don't require multiple locos to move them, then you may have problems when using mismatched locos with DC operation. That was one of the reasons why dummy locos were once so common (the other being that they were a lot cheaper than the powered ones ).
Even identical locos from the same manufacturer may operate differently, either their speed or their starting current, but a heavy train will even them out. There's nothing wrong with DCC operators using speed matching to consist multiple locos, but it's false to say that DC locos cannot be operated (and operate well) in multiples.
The size of layout, the ammount of trains/locos that can be operated has nothing to do with it.
It is what can be done with each loco,train and other things if so desired.
I have known people with 6'x3' layouts and op only 2 locos with DCC and would not have it any other way.
More operable functions per loco/train, operate mutipul locos etc,
and all done with less wiring and generally less expense if multipul train op is required.
Any DCC is better than no DCC.
Cheers
Ian
doctorwayne Bayfield Transfer Railway Definitely DCC. I can imagine no good reason for anyone new to the hobby to think of DC for more than a few microseconds.... Perhaps you can't imagine such a reason, but that would certainly depend on the individual. While DCC may be a better choice for the OP, as he's speaking of at least two operators, I can imagine no reason why I personally would want it. Kyle If you are going to MU trains or run more than one, go with DCC... For running more than one train at a time, yes, DCC. However, running multiple locos on a single train is easily do-able with DC - almost all of my trains are doubleheaded and many also require pushers. No programming, speed matching, re-motoring, or re-gearing required. Jim requested our thoughts on his situation. There's no need to cloud the issue with misinformation. Wayne
Bayfield Transfer Railway Definitely DCC. I can imagine no good reason for anyone new to the hobby to think of DC for more than a few microseconds....
Perhaps you can't imagine such a reason, but that would certainly depend on the individual. While DCC may be a better choice for the OP, as he's speaking of at least two operators, I can imagine no reason why I personally would want it.
Kyle If you are going to MU trains or run more than one, go with DCC...
For running more than one train at a time, yes, DCC. However, running multiple locos on a single train is easily do-able with DC - almost all of my trains are doubleheaded and many also require pushers. No programming, speed matching, re-motoring, or re-gearing required.
Jim requested our thoughts on his situation. There's no need to cloud the issue with misinformation.
I have tried running my locomotives (DC) together, but I am worried that I might have damaged the gears a bit. The only ones that run somewhat well together are an Athearn RTR GP40-2 and GP38-2 because they are exactly the same except for the shell.
Bayfield Transfer RailwayDefinitely DCC. I can imagine no good reason for anyone new to the hobby to think of DC for more than a few microseconds....
KyleIf you are going to MU trains or run more than one, go with DCC...
Lots of people get into this hobby and unfortunately, many do not stay. I would start out with a couple of DC packs from ebay, 50-60 dollars should do it. Then add some good quality engines.
Wiring is easy, DC 2 cab 4x8s have been built since the 60s and it is not very hard to wire. A couple of sidings to park engines will get you going, later you can add more blocks if needed.
Jim
If you are going to run one loco, wiring could be the same. As mentioned, if you are running more than one loco DCC makes life easier. It does cost more to get started as a basic starter set up costs more than a DC power pack and locos will have to be equipped with decoders (either added or bought that way). However, there are some other advantages that folks have listed above, most leaning toward DCC.
I am able to operate either system, as I have purchased a NCE Power Cab for my small layout and set up electrical switches to go from one to the other. When I build my next layout, I will probably be able to operate either, but will not have the extensive blocking that it would normally call for in DC. I operate alone most of the time, so will have only one loco going most of the time in DC. Even on my current 4x6, I can run more than one loco, albeit very carefully.
If you purchase a DCC system, there are basic sets that cost less, but as mentioned above a good, expandable set is worth the extra dollars. If there is a club or other individuals in the area, think about having the same make, as you can ask questions and even take your throttle to join them. Different brands are not compatable with others when it comes to operating.
Have fun,
Richard
If you are going to MU trains or run more than one, go with DCC. Others suggest Bachmann, but for a little more, you can get an Athearn RTR locomotive. Some are DCC ready, and you can plug a decoder in. I have Athearn RTR locomotives, the quality is great and the paint is excellent, it is crisp even with the warning labels. The newer RTRs have excellent detail.
Definitely DCC. I can imagine no good reason for anyone new to the hobby to think of DC for more than a few microseconds. The ready availability of DCC equipped engines for less than $100 is what ultimately cements it.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
However, rather than a central control panel, I'd suggest a walk-around throttle for operation. These are available for DC or DCC operation, and can be either the tethered type or wireless. This will allow you to have on-location control of turnouts, whether through electrical or manual control - both can be done from the fascia, and the latter also on-layout with manually operated ground throws
I realize you are on a budget but perhaps 2 walkarounds would be better so that both you and your son have seperate controls. You can expand the number of thottles on most dcc systems as tim and money allow.
Joe Staten Island West
to the Forum, Jim.
While I'm an avowed DC operator, DCC would likely be best for multiple train operation. Since you're not especially interested in sound, though, non-sound locos and decoders will be somewhat less expensive than those for sound.If you want a centralised control panel from which to operate your turnouts, the amount of wire and wiring will be pretty-much the same for DC or DCC operation, and I'd guess that the amount of wire for DCC and DC with two train operation will be fairly similar, although the DCC wiring will be simpler.Since you're using a single track mainline, though, I don't see much need for multiple train operation, and in that case, DC wiring is the simplest - two wires from the power to the track.However, rather than a central control panel, I'd suggest a walk-around throttle for operation. These are available for DC or DCC operation, and can be either the tethered type or wireless. This will allow you to have on-location control of turnouts, whether through electrical or manual control - both can be done from the fascia, and the latter also on-layout with manually operated ground throws.
DC and DCC both have their own advantages and disadvantages, so the final choice will be up to you.
jmerulloI don't really care about sound or smoke.
I don't care for the smoke either. But sound is another story. I think that sound would keep your son involved a little longer before he discovers girls and cars. My opinion regarding sound is that it adds play value. And what youngster would play a video game or pinball machine if they didn't have sound?
Often on a small layout, DCC is the better choice because it's easier to control two engines without having to have many small DC power blocks. I have a not-too-big L-shaped switching layout that I run with a CVP DCC dual-control unit (two sets of controls in one unit). My grandson (8 next week) and I sometimes will 'operate' the layout together - I'll use one engine to pull cars out of a spur track, and he'll use a different engine to put cars in, things like that. It would be hard to do that in DC without constantly throwing control panel switches and risking running into the 'wrong' block.
Hello,
I’ve gotten back into model railroading after a 40-year hiatus. I though that D/C would be less expensive and not a complicated as DCC.
After just a few months of having a D/C pike I converted to DCC.
It’s actually a much simpler system. Had I invested in DCC in the first place it would have been cheaper in the long run.
I’m on a 4x8 table top. With D/C I had 16 control blocks plus 14 turnouts controlled through 9 switch controllers in addition to two throttles. Running this layout was a challenge to say the least.
With DCC I have one command station that can control all of my locomotives- -4 to 6 at any given time. I have 3 sets of feeder wires providing power to the entire pike- -much simpler wiring. I kept the turnouts D/C, powered from a separat transformer, for that hands on feel.
In hindsight I should have gone with DCC control right off the bat. I would have saved quite a bit of wiring; both time and cost, and would have ended up right where I’m at.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
I would recommend starting with DCC as well.
However, making turnouts work from DCC is more expensive. Most of the time, the same control panels used for turnout control in DC can be, and are, used with DCC. On larger walk around layouts, control panels are usually installed at each town or major switching location.
Folks with really large layouts that have regular operating crews may also use a dispatchers panel. In that case, most mainline turnouts are operated through a computer and DCC as well as the local control panel.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I am just in the process of designing my ne N scale layout, which will measure only 2´by 6´. It will be definitively be operated by DCC, not only for the ease of wiring. DCC puts you in the engineer´s seat, while DC lets you control the track power. With DCC, your son and you will be able to independantly run a train each on the same track. DCC let´s you enhance your loco´s performance by setting the CV´s according to your needs.
IMHO, these arguments suffice to go for DCC, regardless of the size of a layout!
Btw, I just got my Minitrx DCC starter set today! After years of small DC layouts, I really enjoy going digital!
It fact using a 9 or 12 volt transformer(wallwart) is the method I prefer. Don't like to rob power from the DCC system to run other things.
I do the same thing except that I use the AC accesory terminals off a used MRC power pack instead of a wall wart. I also put a capacitive discharge unit (Circuitron Snapper Type) which makes the switches throw with more authority ans also protects them from burning out.
Sounds like most votes are suggesting DCC.
Here's a link to our layout plan. Please note that a lot of the curves and turnouts will be adjusted, this was just a rough plan so we could plan the benchwork and the track we needed.
https://flic.kr/p/pm52Eb
Thanks for the advice so far, folks. Please keep it coming!
Amateur father and son building our first layout: http://coveringourtracks.wordpress.com/
Another vote for DCC. As mentioned a DCC system can be had for $150/160. NCE or Digitrax starter set would be all you need. Bachmann DCC locos can be had for $90/110 new. A bit more than DC. overall since you are starting with no DC equipment, this is the time to move to DCC. With the good possibility that both you and your son will want to both operate trains at the same time, DCC on a layout the size you are building becomes even more practical. It would require a second throttle, but it doesn't need to be a fancy one. As mentioned, powering your turnouts is an option, not required. It fact using a 9 or 12 volt transformer(wallwart) is the method I prefer. Don't like to rob power from the DCC system to run other things.
DCC has a big advantage over DC for small layouts with multiple trains. To do this in DC, you need to create "blocks" for independent train control. This works fine and isn't difficult, but there is a practical limit on how many blocks you can have and how big (or small) they can be. As the layout size gets smaller, it gets harder to create a practical block system.
DCC has no such problem. Each engine is controlled independently, so blocks are not necessary. Since there are two of you working on this layout, I think you should plan for multiple trains from the start. As we often say here, "With DC you run the track. With DCC, you run the trains."
Another consideration is sound. There are provisions in a lot of today's sound-equipped locomotives to operate them in DC, but to get the full range of fun from the sounds you need DCC. If you have not thought about sound, you owe it to yourselves to visit a club layout, train show or train shop where you can watch and listen to sound engines.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Jim,
I'll give you my two cents worth! First, so you know, I am a DC guy (have been for 50 years). One of the reasons is, just what you said. I love flipping switches! I like control panels and lights and so on. Another reason is that I have so much old equipment (N scale) that I am not sure I could put decoders in and the cost to upgrade would be prohibitive.
It is true that there is a LOT LESS wiring with DCC, but again I love the challenge of the wiring. There is an old saying in the hobby, "The complexity of the wiring leads to simplicity in operation."
That being said, If you are new to the hobby and want to get your young son involved, I would go with DCC. IT will cost you more, but if you want to grow into multiple train operation it would be easier and may be more interesting for your son.
I didn't see what scale you are planning to model, but if its HO there would be no issues with availability of DCC equipment, supplies, etc. And, if you grow your railroad and buy older used equipment on secondary market, you could easily install DCC (someone more knowledable than me can give you guidance there)
In any case I hope you and your son begin a life long love of the hobby. My parents bought me an Aurora Postage Stamp (N Scale) train when I was 12 and immediately fell in love with the hobby that I still enjoy today.
Tim
I give this a lot of thought. Since you said it's a figure 8 layout with 1 industry. I thought of the N Scale Fox River I know you're modeling HO, but this track plan has 3 sidings for some switching operation. Plus you can modify it into 1 track plan in some locations.
As for the power is considered just get a DCC system. If the track plan wasn't a 12x8 but a simply 8x4 than I would say DC.
The Fox River track plan still be in the MR Track Plan Database. Make sure to check it out.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
In DCC controlling turnouts with the handheld throttle is an OPTION, but certainly not required. Turnouts may be controlled from the panel with pushbuttons, or manually at the turnout with ground throws.
Your joice.
Dave
In addition to what Roger Johnson wrote, I would like to add that DCC will usually give you much smoother motor control over your locomotive(s) than DC, especially if you have a sound-equipped engine.
In my opinion, DCC using NCE's PowerCab expandable starter system with street prices of about $150. It might even be cheaper than getting started in DC. Simpler wiring (and less wire) and no separate blocks requiring switches that one has to remember to turn on/off when running more than one train, resulting in much simpler and more realistic operation.
Good luck and ENJOY!
Hi all,
My son (12) and I are building a first layout, a 12x8 "L" with a peninsula. Maybe about 90 feet or track total. It is mostly a figure-8 with a few turnouts. We mostly want to build a miniature world and watch trains run but we also want to "play" a bit, hence the turnouts.
I've been doing some homework in planning the layout (benchwork is almost done) and since I'll soon need to start laying basic wiring it's come time to make the decision to go with DC or DCC.
As I said, it's a small layout, a single track. There is one siding and a couple areas of industry. We'd most likely have a single train on it though it would be nice to one day have the option of running a second train. If we don't get bored, we also haven't ruled out one day expanding it but that's a long way off.
Money isn't a huge issue, though it is an issue. If DC will cost me hundreds less than DCC then that's a point for DC.
I'm pretty handy and don't expect wiring would be an issue either way. My son would like some isolated blocks if we go with DC in case we do want to run another train.
One thing we both want is a control panel with switches and lights to control the turnouts. I'm looking forward to building something like that. Would I lose that with DCC? It's my understanding the turnouts would all be controlled from the hand controller.
I don't really care about sound or smoke.
Thoughts?
My first post. Please be gentle.
Thanks,