I have a very basic DC loop layout that looks like the following:
There is power on both sides of the loop, but am currently using the turnout to route power to the spur. I have insulated the main loop on the outbound sides of the turnouts (represented by the isolators on the drawing.) I have two questions.
I am really a novice when it comes to all things electronic.
Richard
If these turnouts are Peco Electrofrogs, then the two inner rails (the frog rails) beyond the frog should be gapped to prevent shorts in DCC mode. On the divergent side of the turnout, it then becomes your choice to power or not power the spur. In DCC, it makes sense to power the spur.
Rich
Alton Junction
am I right to assume that currently using DC you have only one connection from the power pack / transformer? If so with DCC you will want multiple feeders supplying power to multiple points around the oval thus eliminating the Power routing ability as current will be feeding both ends of the turnout. You can still have the ability to control current to the diverting route but some may suggest to add feeders to the sidings too.
why the need for multiple feeders? DCC works best with a strong signal to all points of the layout, it's more than voltage drop like DC.
In my opinion power routing turnouts on DCC layout are ok but really become unnecessary as each locomotive is independantly controlled so no need to turn the track on and off like DC. Hope this helps.
basementdweller am I right to assume that currently using DC you have only one connection from the power pack / transformer?
am I right to assume that currently using DC you have only one connection from the power pack / transformer?
No, I have two feeders, one on each side of the track. The loop is small so the distance between the two feeders is approximately six feet of track. (It's an N-scale layout.) All connections are soldered. I plan on adding feeders to the sidings after the cutover to DCC.
If everything is working properly on DC, it will work properly on DCC with no changes necessary.
RideOnRoad... If I replace the DC connection to the layout with a DCC connection, as is, will it continue work? ...
...
Yes.
RideOnRoad... 2. If I want to add power directly to the siding, do I need to isolate the spur also? ...
2. If I want to add power directly to the siding, do I need to isolate the spur also?
CSX Robert RideOnRoad ... 2. If I want to add power directly to the siding, do I need to isolate the spur also? ... Yes.
RideOnRoad ... 2. If I want to add power directly to the siding, do I need to isolate the spur also? ...
But it would be sufficient to gap the inner rail, that is, the divergent frog rail.
If I gap both inner rails from the turnout, does that men that the frog is now longer powered?
Richard,
The frog will still be powered....the polarity of it will be determined upon which point is touching which stock rail, that would be power routing from the points. The straight route and the diverging route will have to have feeders added after the insulated joiners.
This site will explain with diagrams how to do that and also more reliable ways. Take some time out and go over it to better familiarize yourself with all the wiring techniques and tips. Great site to have for future reference:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm
Take Care!
Frank
RideOnRoad If I gap both inner rails from the turnout, does that mean that the frog is no longer powered?
If I gap both inner rails from the turnout, does that mean that the frog is no longer powered?
Out of the box, on a Peco Electrofrog, the metal frog is not isolated from the closure rails or the frog rails. So, the frog picks up power from the closure rails and the frog rails. But, once you gap the frog rails (i.e., the inner rails), the only source of power to the frog is from the closure rails. In turn, the closure rails are connected, via hinges, to the point rails.
Since the Peco Electrofrog is designed to operate as a power routing turnout, the point rails will be thrown against either the through stock rail or the divergent stock rail, picking up the polarity of the respective stock rail. So, with the frog rails gapped, power is routed to the frog from the stock rail, via the point rail, via the closure rail. At that point, polarity of the frog is determined by the polarity of the stock rail against which the point rail is thrown.
One further thought on powering the frog on a Peco Electrofrog turnout.
You could gap not only the frog rails but also the closure rails completely isolating the frog.
Now you have a dead metal frog. There are many ways to power the isolated metal frog.
Here is an example.
http://www.teamdigital1.com/applications/tech_talk/frog_power.html
Electrofrogs already have the rail gapped. The frog can be completely isolated by snipping the jumpers underneath.
Scroll down to the Electrofrog section, 12-b: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Electrofrogs already have the rail gapped. The frog can be completely isolated by snipping the jumpers underneath.
To gap them, you have to cut the jumpers.
zstripe . . .This site will explain with diagrams how to do that and also more reliable ways. Take some time out and go over it to better familiarize yourself with all the wiring techniques and tips. Great site to have for future reference: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm . . .
. . .This site will explain with diagrams how to do that and also more reliable ways. Take some time out and go over it to better familiarize yourself with all the wiring techniques and tips. Great site to have for future reference:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm . . .
Frank,
Thanks for for the pointer! I just gave the section on the Electrofrogs a quick read and realized it is going to take a while to digest. (Remember, electronics novice.) I am going to buy a new turnout that I can play with, one that is not attached to my layout, and try to learn.
RideOnRoad zstripe . . .This site will explain with diagrams how to do that and also more reliable ways. Take some time out and go over it to better familiarize yourself with all the wiring techniques and tips. Great site to have for future reference: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm . . . Frank, Thanks for for the pointer! I just gave the section on the Electrofrogs a quick read and realized it is going to take a while to digest. (Remember, electronics novice.) I am going to buy a new turnout that I can play with, one that is not attached to my layout, and try to learn.
Here is another excellent web site with much easier to understand photos.
http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.com/2011/06/insulfrog-or-electrofrog-that-is.html
http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.ca/2013/01/the-peco-electrofrog-circuitry.html
If you purchase a spare Electrofrog to play with and to analyze its construction and operation, do some electrical continuity tests on it as well to get a sense of how it is all put together.
RideOnRoad I have a very basic DC loop layout that looks like the following: There is power on both sides of the loop, but am currently using the turnout to route power to the spur. I have insulated the main loop on the outbound sides of the turnouts (represented by the isolators on the drawing.) I have two questions. If I replace the DC connection to the layout with a DCC connection, as is, will it continue work? If I want to add power directly to the siding, do I need to isolate the spur also? I am really a novice when it comes to all things electronic.
I used almost all Atlas Custom Line switches with one Shinohara sissors crossover on my layout with some power routing via Atlas Solinoids. My frogs are also powered with Atlas Solinoids. My layout had been designed with DC block control. Other than wiring my Digitrax Zephyr as one of the throttles, no other changes; or, upgrades where made to allow use of DCC. This system has worked flawlessly for 10 years.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
OK, I have to say, what makes that site less complicated than Alan's? It's exactly the same, drawing the circuit paths with red and blue lines!
The jumper cuts are actually also on the instruction sheet included with the Electrofrogs (at least the Code 83 ones I bought).
rrinker OK, I have to say, what makes that site less complicated than Alan's? It's exactly the same, drawing the circuit paths with red and blue lines!
Here are the turnout drawings on the two web sites. I will leave it to the other interested forum members to decide for themselves if one is easier to understand than the other. If not, so be it.
You are quite..welcome. Just a point to remember,, You can have all the diagrams and instructions showing whats going on....but without reading the text and comprehending the why's of what's going on.....the diagram's/instructions, are useless.
When using an Electrofrog turnout and only insulating the two inner rails after the frog and using the points for power routing through the frog, you run the risk of the wheel flange and tire bridging the gap between the point and the stock rail, which will be the opposite polarity and creating a short. That is one reason why it is a good idea to isolate the frog entirely and power it separately....which would be my choice. I run a DC layout and have been wiring switches for years and the way mine is wired any DCC system will work fine on it.
zstripe RideOnRoad zstripe . . .This site will explain with diagrams how to do that and also more reliable ways. Take some time out and go over it to better familiarize yourself with all the wiring techniques and tips. Great site to have for future reference: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm . . . Frank, Thanks for for the pointer! I just gave the section on the Electrofrogs a quick read and realized it is going to take a while to digest. (Remember, electronics novice.) I am going to buy a new turnout that I can play with, one that is not attached to my layout, and try to learn. You are quite..welcome. Just a point to remember,, You can have all the diagrams and instructions showing whats going on....but without reading the text and comprehending the why's of what's going on.....the diagram's/instructions, are useless. When using an Electrofrog turnout and only insulating the two inner rails after the frog and using the points for power routing through the frog, you run the risk of the wheel flange and tire bridging the gap between the point and the stock rail, which will be the opposite polarity and creating a short. That is one reason why it is a good idea to isolate the frog entirely and power it separately....which would be my choice. I run a DC layout and have been wiring switches for years and the way mine is wired any DCC system will work fine on it. Take Care! Frank
zstripe
. . .This site will explain with diagrams how to do that and also more reliable ways. Take some time out and go over it to better familiarize yourself with all the wiring techniques and tips. Great site to have for future reference: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm . . .
The decision to acquire a spare Electrofrog turnout and experiment with it is a good one. I have done this myself, not only with turnouts but other electrical components as well. It is true that no amount of diagrams, or text for that matter, can replace hands on testing to gain experience.
The idea of completely isolating the frog and powering it separately is a good one as well. Now, you have the best of both worlds, power routing and a live frog, without the risk of shorts. Both Alan's web site and Bob's web site, as previously discussed, describe the procedures necessary to completely isolate the frog on a Peco Electofrog.
Incidentally, the risk of the wheel flange bridging the gap between the point rail and the stock rail and causing a momentary short exists on a Peco Electrofrog out of the box whether or not the inner frog rails are gapped. Completely isolating the frog will remove this potential momentary short issue.