nicholasleby Hey NittanyLion, first thanks for posting about this topic. I think I am having a similar problem as well (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2xUM1lWRow) does this spark look similar to what you were seeing? It only happens on the through route, and doesn't happen when going in reverse? Thanks!
Hey NittanyLion, first thanks for posting about this topic. I think I am having a similar problem as well (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2xUM1lWRow) does this spark look similar to what you were seeing? It only happens on the through route, and doesn't happen when going in reverse? Thanks!
What type of turnout do you have?
Rich
Alton Junction
Yup, that piece of metal sticking up through the alignment nub was from one of the connections between the closure rail and diverging frog rail. Definitely should not be there, and with it touching the frog, the frog was electrically connected to one of the closure rails, and thus one of the stock rails (at the hinge point, you will see that there is a tab of metal that the point rails are riveted to,a dn that little tab goes under the adjacent stock rail). So, all was fine when you run through the turnout one way, where the frog is the correct polarity. Run through the other way though, adn you have a wheel coming off the closure rail that's say the left rail, touching the frog that is (mistakenly) connected to the right rail. Dead short. The reason there wasn;t a continuous short, ie, short as soon as you applied power to teh rails, is that the OTHER gaps in the frog were all fine - the ones between the closure rail and frog, adn frog and diverging rails.
The NWSL wheels really help the old Blue Box locos. Cuts down on raw pulling power, but MUCH better electrical contact and they don;t get as dirty as fast. I've had BB locos where there was a bit missing on one of the wheels even, guess the sintering mold didn;t fill up. Looked like someone took a bite out of it. Mine was missing a chunk on he flange - if I was unlucky to have that particualr spot of the wheel come around right at a turnout pount, it would pick the points every time. The newer stuff all comes with nickel plated wheels so this isn't such a big deal unless you run them so long that the plating wears off, then it's time for new wheels.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Another thing about generating the sparks. All my Athearn locos were spark generators due to the sintered metal wheels. Bright Orange sparks. Changing the wheels to NWSL Nickel Silver wheels eliminated the sparking completely.
Great detective work Nittany Lion and Rich. This is a keeper thread. It can save a lot of frustration for those of us who use Atlas turnouts.
Joe
NittanyLion Success! Not even the tiny little blue sparks. I think it might even be a smoother ride after filing the frog down a teeny bit. I'm going to test it a bit more on the bench before installing it, but I think it's all good. Thanks a lot for the help with this. Saved me a bit of money and got to learn a thing or two.
Success! Not even the tiny little blue sparks. I think it might even be a smoother ride after filing the frog down a teeny bit. I'm going to test it a bit more on the bench before installing it, but I think it's all good.
Thanks a lot for the help with this. Saved me a bit of money and got to learn a thing or two.
It takes a bit of nerve to tackle a balky turnout, but you did good.
A lot of views on this thread, so I am sure that your issue was of interest to a lot of others as well.
NittanyLion I am curious though. Had I been using powered frogs, would this problem ever actually revealed itself or would it have been a maddeningly difficult problem to find?
I am curious though. Had I been using powered frogs, would this problem ever actually revealed itself or would it have been a maddeningly difficult problem to find?
In effect, the frog was powered, but not correctly.
To try and answer your question, it would depend upon the brand and type of turnout and how it was powered.
If it were a Peco Electrofrog, the frog would not be isolated, and it would be powered by the power routing feature of the point rails. So, there wouldn't be a jumper problem to deal with.
On the other hand, if you were intentionally trying to power the frog on an Atlas Custom Line turnout, the frog is supposed to be isolated, but the metal flash would interfere, and I would think that it would be a difficult problem to uncover.
NittanyLion I actually found putting the frog back in harder than getting it out! It just didn't want to seat right.
I actually found putting the frog back in harder than getting it out! It just didn't want to seat right.
I filed the little flash off and put a tiny dab of Squadron putty in the hole. I did file the bottom of the frog a bit just to get it to be level with the railhead again.
NittanyLion Now, if I'm interpretting what everyone's told me, there should be no exposed metal of any kind in the, uh, sub-frog, right? In the sub-frog, there's four circles cast into the plastic. I assume some sort of alignment system for the frog. One of these is partially hollow and there's a tiny little finger of metal sticking up in there. On the matching circle on the base of the frog, there's some metal flash sticking down into the hole. If I file off that flash and plug that hole, everything should be good, right?
Now, if I'm interpretting what everyone's told me, there should be no exposed metal of any kind in the, uh, sub-frog, right? In the sub-frog, there's four circles cast into the plastic. I assume some sort of alignment system for the frog. One of these is partially hollow and there's a tiny little finger of metal sticking up in there. On the matching circle on the base of the frog, there's some metal flash sticking down into the hole.
If I file off that flash and plug that hole, everything should be good, right?
Yes, the permanent fix would be to remove any metal flash, then apply a coat of 2-part epoxy, smooth it out, let it set, then replace the frog.
As I look at the "sub-frog" on my turnout, it is smooth, no sign of any metal. Given that yours has some metal flash, and that hollow area, apparently something went wrong during the casting/molding process.
Heck, just temporarily cover the area with a small piece of masking tape, stick the frog back on, and see if the short (sparking) goes away.
Read all the replies since last night.
Managed to get the frog off (which I didn't even know could be removed), only did some light damage to the plastic just outside the frog. Shouldn't be too noticeable after filing and painting. Also, the turnout slipped once and I speared myself with the end of the rail. I figure only one cut to myself when prying something apart with an x-acto knife is a victory.
Yes, the one I popped out while attempting to solder to it, I just glued back in place with CA and I ran trains over it for another couple of years before I moved and it was fine. I may have actually been attempting to tap the hole after soldering failed - this turnout was already in place, and the force of this may have been what popped the frog out. Now I just use a plain old brass screw, don;t tap, and the screw isn't even 'officially' a self tapping screw. The difference is, I do it BEFORE putting the turnout in place. Thus I can support the frog while driving the screw in so it doesn;t get popped out.
OK, I couldn't resist the impulse any longer.
I have an old, damaged, out of use, Atlas Custom Line #6 turnout with an isolated metal frog, DCC Friendly.
So, I put on the Optivisor and examined it more closely. There are jumpers, thin metal strips, that connect the two closure rails to their respective frog rails. The jumper connecting the divergent rails on the #6 turnout is exposed on the underside of the turnout. The jumper connecting the through rails is above the divergent rails jumper, closer to the frog, embedded in plastic.
If you gently twist the turnout back and forth, the frog can be popped out with the point of an Exacto blade, without damaging the turnout. This will reveal the plastic bed upon which the frog sits in place. As I examined the turnout with the frog removed, I could observe that the plastic gaps do, indeed, insulate the frog from the four adjacent rails. I also observed no sign of the metal jumper connecting the through rails.
If Nittany Lion were to do this, I suspect that he will see a spot where the metal jumper for the through rails is exposed under the frog. Cover it with a thin layer of 2 part epoxy, and he would be good to go.
Incidentally, I mentioned in one of my earlier replies that I inadvertently had a frog pop out of place a few months back. I used thick CA to glue it back in place, and it has held up quite well ever since.
rrinker I've had the frog pop off one while attempting to solder a feeder to the frog.
I've had the frog pop off one while attempting to solder a feeder to the frog.
Not long ago, I was removing an Atlas Custom Line #6 Code 83 turnout on my layout for repair. As I was removing the turnout, the frog fell out. So, the frog is not necessarily hard to remove.
Incidentally, I have never powered a frog, but on the Atlas Custom Line turnout, there is a small metal extension on the frog, a tab with a hole in the center. As I now realize, that tab with the hole in the center of it is there for the purpose of inserting a metal screw to bring power to the frog, should you so choose.
OK, I went back and did a continuity check on the exposed metal piece on the underside of the turnout. As Randy indicates, that exposed metal piece running parallel to the divergent rails is the jumper connecting the divergent closure rail to the divergent frog rail.
So, the jumper connecting the through closure rail to the through frog rail is embedded in the plastic ties between the frog and the jumper for the divergent rails.
Since the through closure rail is powering the frog, Nittany Lion is going to have to remove the exposed jumper to get at the embedded jumper, or else remove the frog to get at the offending jumper.
Edit Note: As I re-read your reply, Randy, it looks like you are saying that these are not jumpers at all but, rather, a continuation of the rails under the frog, meant to be separated by plastic molding. Interesting!
No, Zstripe has it right. The closure rails continue under the frog to the appropriate diverging frog rail, tha's how they are all routes powered rather than power routing. On the very bottom you see the metal of the one closure rail, above that in the plastic is the second closure rail, and above that sits the frog. The frog power connection is the little tab with a hole in it on the one side.
This is why I put feeders on all 3 legs of Atlas Custom Line turnouts - the ones on the diverging side give a solid power feed to the closure rails that doesn't depend on joiners or rivets, it goes through that solid connection embedded in the plastic.
I've had the frog pop off one while attempting to solder a feeder to the frog (not going to happen, don't even try. Instead, brass screw in the hole and solder to that). Underneath the frog is just a thin layer of plastic insulating the upper of the two flattened pieces that connect the closure rail to the frog rail. Scratch through that plastic and you will see the metal (and ruin the turnout). If that part of the mold didn;t fill properly, the frog will be contacting the rail causing the issue described. If the missing part was the plastic between the two closure rails, then the whole thing would be a dead short at all times.
zstripe It was explained to me by Atlas that the frog area has two thin flat metal jumpers that are sandwiched in under the frog with the frog on top then inserted in the mold and then the liquid hot plastic is injected into the mold at high pressure and creates a wafer thin insulation between the jumpers and the frog and also the insulated gaps on the rails that you can see. They were having this problem and had corrected it.....but some had slipped through the system and apparrantly you have one. The frog is touching one of the jumpers, due to lack of plastic that separates them.
It was explained to me by Atlas that the frog area has two thin flat metal jumpers that are sandwiched in under the frog with the frog on top then inserted in the mold and then the liquid hot plastic is injected into the mold at high pressure and creates a wafer thin insulation between the jumpers and the frog and also the insulated gaps on the rails that you can see. They were having this problem and had corrected it.....but some had slipped through the system and apparrantly you have one. The frog is touching one of the jumpers, due to lack of plastic that separates them.
If you look at the underside of an Atlas Custom Line #6 turnout, you will see an exposed piece of metal laid under the frog in parallel with the divergent closure rail and the divergent frog rail. I believe that this exposed piece of metal is the part that Atlas added to simplify powering the frog, should someone choose to do so. That being the case, the jumpers connecting the closure rails to the frog rails would be placed between the frog and this exposed piece of metal. So, as opposed to the jumper touching the frog, it may be that the jumper is contacting this exposed piece of metal which itself has contact with the frog. Of course, the only way to find out would be to dig out that exposed piece of metal. If you have no intention of intentionally powering the frog at some point in the future, you could remove that exposed piece of metal.
Edit Note: See my later reply about that exposed piece of metal.
So, the frog appears to be fully gapped on the surface of the turnout. That would indicate that the source of power to the frog is the jumper embedded in the ties on the underside of the turnout. Take a look at the diagram below.
The upper illustration shows the correct polarity of the turnout, using red and blue colors for the rails. The frog parts are colored black. The dotted lines represent the embedded jumpers connecting the closure rails to the frog rails. The arrow pointing to the gap shows the plastic gap on the surface of the turnout.
The lower illustration shows the result of the through closure rail making electrical contact with the frog. The frog takes on the polarity of the through closure rail (blue), creating a short on the divergent side but no short on the straight through side.
Since there is a plastic gap on the surface of the turnout, and there does appear to be a separation between the through closure rail and the frog, the only source of power to the frog has to be coming from the embedded jumper on the underside of the turnout.
Double check your continuity to be sure that the only source of power to the frog is the through closure rail. If it is, then visually examine the plastic gap on the surface of the turnout to be certain that the end of the through closure rail is not touching the frog at any point. If there is no surface contact between the through closure rail and the frog, then it can only be that embedded jumper.
You can cut four new gaps, two before and two after,right through the plastic gaps that are there and fill in with a medium type CA that you can file and completely isolate the frog again, would probably be the best solution, if you want to go through all that. That would be the only way to power the frog, should you want to.
Your choice, My experience.
Take Care!
Frank
Just trimming the approach rails will not negate your warranty.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Frog does seem to be isolated. I used my digital camera as an ad hoc microscope to get a clear view at much higher magnification than my eyes have. Nothing looked amiss or very different than similiar photos of a turnout with no issues. The only difference between the two (aside from one being RH and the other LH) is the faulty one is a difference of .004 in the spacing between the frog and through closure rail.
I did alter the turnout itself, trimming about half an inch of rail off one end to make it fit, so I've pretty much assumed that any sort of warranty is long gone. Figure if I can get the thing to work, I might as well, since I'm already in for...however much it cost.
Just be aware that any hacking, cutting, filing, etc. will invalidate whatever warranty the product may have had from Atlas, and if you can't solve the problem you may wind up having to purchase another turnout.
NittanyLion Turns out the through closure rail isn't isolated from the frog. This would also explain why the discharge doesn't occur when the locomotive goes through rather than diverges, doesn't it?
Turns out the through closure rail isn't isolated from the frog. This would also explain why the discharge doesn't occur when the locomotive goes through rather than diverges, doesn't it?
Now, the question is, how to fix it.
Since the frog is supposed to be isolated, there should be a plastic gap between the frog and the through closure rail. Is it there or is the through closure rail touching the frog?
The other possible issue is the jumper embedded under the ties. It connects the through closure rail to the through frog rail. Assuming that you get a continuity reading between those two rails, it may be that the jumper is also making contact with the metal frog, but you cannot see it since the jumper is embedded in the plastic.
What can you tell when you look closely?
Ok, so I sat down and got out the multi-meter.
Turns out the through closure rail isn't isolated from the frog. This would also explain why the discharge doesn't occur when the locomotive goes through rather than diverges, doesn't it? Seems more obvious after the fact that the fault was there.
You are to be admired for sticking with it and trying to solve the problem. It should be fixable. Keep us posted.
Ok, so it looks like I have a plan of action for later when I'm doing laundry and have time to sit down and tinker (compared to right now which is internet while eating lunch).
This affair is bothersome because its the first Atlas turnout I've ever had that gave me any real trouble. That and taking it back to the store is, uh, shall we say not cost effective as it is almost six hours away in Western Pennsylvania, whereas I am in Northern Virginia. Made a stop there on my way back from Cleveland last month. With this turnout, I'd complete all tracklaying. So close!
NittanyLion Yes, its a brand new #6 Custom Line. Got it about a month ago. The hobby shop I got it at date stamps their inventory and they'd received it in early July. There is something different about it compared to other Atlast turnouts, at least as best I remember. On the bottom of the frog, there's a section of exposed rail instead of a fully plastic frog-bottom. I don't know if this is significant.
Yes, its a brand new #6 Custom Line. Got it about a month ago. The hobby shop I got it at date stamps their inventory and they'd received it in early July. There is something different about it compared to other Atlast turnouts, at least as best I remember. On the bottom of the frog, there's a section of exposed rail instead of a fully plastic frog-bottom. I don't know if this is significant.
The bottom of all of my Atlas Custom Line turnouts, both Code 83 and Code 100, are fully covered in plastic, the bottom of the ties, with one area of exposed metal. That exposed area of metal is directly beneath the frog. It sounds like yours is the same as mine with that exposed area of metal.
I just recently picked up an Atlas Customline #6 at my LHS that was from a shipment he had just received. So far, all has been good. No sparking or shorting.