Marty,
Defineltly a learning experience. Don't have any trouble with house current, but beyond that, electronics get mysterious fast.
There is now a notebook on hand to record CV settings. Sounds like a good idea. Working on figuring a couple of other CV changes out. Will record all of them for the various locos.
Didn't have much time to fool with different speed settings today. Someday!
Thanks for the help,
Richard
Richard,
DCC can be a real learning experience. I know it was for me. If you keep adjusting the appropriate CV's you will eventually get them running the way you want. Just remember to keep track of your settings so if you change something and then don't like it you can go back to where you started. I use JMRI which makes changes pretty easy but you can do the samething straight from the Power Cab.
Also, don't hesitate to continue asking questions. You will find many very knowledgeble contributers on the forum. While I do not consider myself in their league I have been the beneficiary on numerous ocasions of their expertise.
All the best,
Marty C
Thanks aagain for the added information. A good hay day, so was late and tired when I got to the train room.
Got the NCE to perform more to my liking. I don't see much variation in response to setting changes, then quite a bit. Maybe I need to have a little more patience.
Marty, thanks for the step by step. I had been doing it the night before, using the book, but kept skipping a step or hitting the wrong button. With that experience and your directions, I have cut my time making changes down quite a bit.
Mike, I'm glad I'm not the only one that finds the verbage a little goosey. If things could only be straight forward, but then, if they were, they wouldn't need all the techinical help. Poloticians would be lost.
Robert, glad to hear that there is actually no "perfect". That means I may be a lot closer to normal then I could have hoped for.
No trains tomorrow, concert to play on the statehouse lawn, if the T-storms stay away. Will keep plugging away to see if I can fine tune things a little more sometime.
Thanks again.
cowman...Worked a little on both, but not where I'd hoped to be yet. Got some intermittant results with the Bachmann, so spent more time on the Atlas with NCE decoder. Reset CV 2 , which the paperwork says has a rage from 0-100, up from 0 to 70. Loco starts at 1, but goes a little way then stops, takes a throttle settiing of 2 or 3 to keep it rolling...
Got some intermittant results with the Bachmann, so spent more time on the Atlas with NCE decoder. Reset CV 2 , which the paperwork says has a rage from 0-100, up from 0 to 70. Loco starts at 1, but goes a little way then stops, takes a throttle settiing of 2 or 3 to keep it rolling...
I'll try to explain what's going on here. If you set CV 2 to where the loco just barely starts moving on speed step 1, then it's just not going to take much to make it stop - a slight bump in the track where a joint is miss-aligned, a dirty spot that causes a voltage drop, a slight bind in the drivetrain, a voltage drop from the track wiring - it cuold be any number of things. The torque compensation settings on the NCE decoder(CV 116 and 117) can help tremendously, but they will not alleviate this issue completely, and this is completely normal. The reason that you don't see this with your sound decoders is they have BEMF compensation. Basically, the decoder reads the back voltage generated by the turning motor to try to maintain the motor at the same speed. If the motor stops, the decoder increases it's output to get the motor to start turning again.
As you can see, lots of CV value changes. And different mfg use different CVs for different speed effect controls sometimes, such as Soundtraxx, which I think is your Sound Value decoder. So, I recommend the following tool used on your computer attached to your layout. Makes tuning your decoders a LOT easier. And what you want to do is likely speed match the locos so that they can run together easily. Google "speed matching HO locos with DCC" and see what you get.
http://jmri.sourceforge.net/
PS, I changed out all of my Bachmann decoders as they didn't work as well as I wanted. But my Bachmann steamers are great now.
mlehmanMy NCE system just didn't like assoicating with those simpleminded things or something.
Yes,those decoders are rather simple minded(near lunatic?) low end Lenz decoders or so I've read.
They will work for simple multi train operation and consisting on Bachmann's E-Z DCC system-there are three Bachmann videos explaining how their E-Z DCC works on You Tube.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Thank you for the additional responses. I'm running late again, work keeps getting in the way, but you have to make hay when the sun shines.
Went to the sites and copied the instruction sheets for both decoders. Even read some of the material (gads!).
Thought about a full reset, as the NCE had operated in reverse when the screen said FWD when I first installed it. However, couldn't remember how to reset, so just set the CV's. Did finally find the CV to reset the NCE (on the last page), but seemed to have made progress, so didn't reset as it was getting late.
With CV 2 at 0, 116 at 2 and 117 at 25, the NCE performed much better, though I would like to see it a little better. A little more time for trial and error hopefully will help.
The Bachmann didn't do as well with those settings. Ran out of time to get to try more of the possibilities listed. Does anyone know how to reset one of the Bachmann decoders? The NCE lists CV 30, but the Bachmann information doesn't list that as one of the CV's it acknowledges. I guess I can go to the Bach Man and ask, if no one here knows.
Thanks again for the additional information. Will keep plugging away and see if I can't get smarter and improve the performance.
Have fun,
BRAKIEAs I mention in my reply to CSX Roberts I only fooled with two CVs on my 70 Tonner-start volt and momentum ..Those did the job I wanted.Don't know anything about the other CVs.
I didn't even do that -- at first -- just left them at factory default. They ran so poorly on that, once I was sure I everything else tracked down -- remember these were converted to HOn3 -- like contact, weight, etc -- I decided to cut the caps off and diddle with the CVs. But that was only after convincing myself that was the issue based on research.Back then, I pretty much left everything except master volume at factory defaults.
I can't say this is all decodered 70-tonners or what. I just know I'd exhausted all fixes except trying something different. Obviously, YMMV. I still suspect it was more a control issue than a decoder issue. My NCE system just didn't like assoicating with those simpleminded things or something.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
mlehmanAs someone else mentioned, none of that fancy stuff in the factory 70-tonner decoder. Buried somewhere on the B-mann website is a CV list.
As I mention in my reply to CSX Roberts I only fooled with two CVs on my 70 Tonner-start volt and momentum ..Those did the job I wanted.Don't know anything about the other CVs.
My DCC/Sound S4 has a instruction sheet for CVs.
This is for the FA2 but,the S4 has the exact same sheet-S4 photo of course.
http://www.soundtraxx.com/factory/OEM%20pages/bachmann/ho_fa2_sv.pdf
Again I use MRC Tech 6 for my limited DCC needs.
http://modelrec.com/search/product-view.asp?ID=8266
The instructions
http://www.modelrectifier.com/resources/dc-ac/Tech%206%202.0%20%200001200.pdf
BRAKIE mlehman Larry disagrees. My only experience with them is in the 70-tonner. I thought it was great when they started throwing in a free decoder, than I realised I pretty much got what I paid for. All I can say is the decoder does the job I required of it..Start,volt,speed steps,Rule 17, and momentum. Not sure what tune you wanted it to dance to but,it danced to my tune like I expected. I haven't fooled with the BEMF CVs or CVs 212-214 or any of those types of CVs..
mlehman Larry disagrees. My only experience with them is in the 70-tonner. I thought it was great when they started throwing in a free decoder, than I realised I pretty much got what I paid for.
All I can say is the decoder does the job I required of it..Start,volt,speed steps,Rule 17, and momentum.
Not sure what tune you wanted it to dance to but,it danced to my tune like I expected.
I haven't fooled with the BEMF CVs or CVs 212-214 or any of those types of CVs..
Larry,
As someone else mentioned, none of that fancy stuff in the factory 70-tonner decoder. Buried somewhere on the B-mann website is a CV list. It may be in one of the forums or a FAQ. It's been awhile, but there's not much to it as I recall. I have a PDF here. Use this to search for it "Bachmann E-Z Command Two Function Controller." I'm not sure it's exactly the same, but seemed to be what worked, such as it did.
I was plagued by intermittent throttle response and other gremlins, so went to research mode. Discovered the caps were disposable, but didn't make much difference. Found the CV list tried that with little or no difference. Evenetually came across enough instances of "Just put a good decoder in it, solved my problem, tyhat I decided to do that same.Right awya, a dramatic difference. Mind you, it was still a Bachmann, but at least the decoder wasn't holding it back.
I suspect B-mann and my NCE PowerPro didn't get along. Only locos that ever did something like thing. All six of them, bought in pairs at different times from different vendors, so not a QC issue.
Numbered Qs first.
1. I believe it is. The NCE DCC system manuals calls 116 and 117 together "Torque Compensation" and says, "When using TC set the Start Voltage to 0 for best operation." But then the verbiage gets a little goosey. It says setting 116 to 0 turns off the kick, with "typical value is 2-4 with a maximum practical value of about 6." So 60 is probably not helpful. I usually use 3 or 4 with good results. But CV 2 is best at 0 in my experience recently when using 116 and 117.
2. Doubt they need service, but it doesn't hurt to check lube condition. What may help, since you've been trying to program them, is to do a full factory reset, then start over. Sometimes you hit the wrong CV and program soemthing you didn't intend to. Sometimes it's best to just start over and change one thing at a time, so you can see the specific results of what you did. For the NCE setting CV 30 to 2 will wipe it back to factory config. Then see how it runs. It may simply be a problem you introduced.
Speaking of, if you're using CV 2 at 70, that may very well be both a symptom of something else being wrong, as well as introducing a very odd setting for that CV that may create other problems. In fact, if that's what it took to get it going, then I'd say do a reset. Someting is just not right.
The documentation for the NCE 13SR can be found on the NCE website. CV 116 is the voltage kick and the range is recommended as 2 to 4. A setting of 1 provides a constant kick with higher numbers giving lesser number of kicks (nudge) It says the highest workable number is about 8 so if you set it higher it will default to 0 which is no nudge. CV 117 is the strength of the kick and has a range of 4 to 23 recommended and the highest workable number of 50. With this CV the higher the number the larger the kick. I would set CV 116 at 1 and CV 117 at about 10. If that keeps the engine running at speed step 1 I would start lowering CV 2 until you get a likable starting speed. I think you will find that 70 may be too high. Most of my NCE non-sound engines will start and run with a CV 2 setting below 10.
With regard to servicing, make sure the wheels and track are clean first. If that is not the problem and you want to service you should remove the shell to do a proper lube of the bearings and a little grease on the gears in the trucks. Try the settings above first and you may not have to go further especially if these are new engines. They may also need some break in so run them for a time and see if that helps.
Sorry I can'r provide info on the Bachman.
Thank you all for your replies. True, I didn't expect as good a performance out of the less expensive decoders, but so far I have no real kicks.
Finally got a little time in the train room tonight. Worked a little on both, but not where I'd hoped to be yet.
Got some intermittant results with the Bachmann, so spent more time on the Atlas with NCE decoder. Reset CV 2 , which the paperwork says has a rage from 0-100, up from 0 to 70. Loco starts at 1, but goes a little way then stops, takes a throttle settiing of 2 or 3 to keep it rolling. When I tried to raise the value higher, to 80 or 90, I got poorer response. On the information sheet there is no range of values listed CV 116, I set it at 60. Does anyone know what the range on the NCE D15SR is for both CV 116 and 117? Any suggestions for settings for those CV's? Tried CV 2 at 0, but didn't see much difference. Will try it again when I find out what the ranges of 116 and 117 are.
I can't find any information with the Bachmann paperwork to give a range of values for any of the CV's Haven't been to their sight to look, any suggestions? It was set with CV 2 at 31 and CV 116 at 255. Raised CV 2 a couple of times and it started better, but it was inconsistant. Need to find out what the ranges are and to do some more resetting.
Couple of additional questions:
1. If I set CV 2 at a number other than 0 are 116 and 117 still operational?
2. Since the response of both locos is a little intermittant, do they need servicing. They are both new locos and since the Athearn came with a plug installed and the Bachmann with DCC installed, I don't think they are new/old stock. Am I correct in assuming that to service them I will have to remove the shells? I haven't looked at them to see what I can get to from the bottom.
Thank you for the help. I hope to have some more time tomorrow night to look up ranges and do a little more experimenting.
Thanks again,
CSX RobertI believe cacole is refering to the Bachmann non-sound decoder, whereas you seem to be refering to the Bachmann sound decoder (which is a completely different animal, made by Soundtraxx).
Indeed I was.I guess I was thrown off by "3 with sound" comment.
My 70 Tonner the CVs i use is,start volt and momentum and it responds quite well.Don't know about the other CV settings since I don't use them.
cacole...The Bachmann will most lilkely never perform any better due to the low quality decoder they use. Changing the decoder in it may be your best option...
BRAKIE Actually those decoders will respond quite well to all CV settings including start volt. I too thought these decoders was junk from what I read on this and other forums but,after I started using my DCC/Sound S4 and setting CVs I found them to be quite good-not top end but,not junk as many claim.
I too thought these decoders was junk from what I read on this and other forums but,after I started using my DCC/Sound S4 and setting CVs I found them to be quite good-not top end but,not junk as many claim.
I believe cacole is refering to the Bachmann non-sound decoder, whereas you seem to be refering to the Bachmann sound decoder (which is a completely different animal, made by Soundtraxx).
You can still get the Bachmann non-sound to run on speed step one by adjuatig CV2, but it's not going to run nearly as smoothly as the others.
As you can see, everyone has an opinion about decoders and settings. It would be helpful to all if you wouls follow up with an update of how you resolved the challenge and what the results are.
Thanks,
mlehmanLarry disagrees. My only experience with them is in the 70-tonner. I thought it was great when they started throwing in a free decoder, than I realised I pretty much got what I paid for.
cacoleFor the locomotive with the NCE decoder, you can also adjust CVs 116 and 117 for smoother performance at low speed
One thing I learned recently about this is when CV 116 and 117 are used, NCE recommends setting CV2 to 0. Just go ahead and do it. I was surprised that it actually worked so well after trying all sorts of combinations >0, really made 116 and 117 useful. This made speed matching much easier for me personally.
cacoleThe Bachmann will most lilkely never perform any better due to the low quality decoder they use. Changing the decoder in it may be your best option.
Larry disagrees. My only experience with them is in the 70-tonner. I thought it was great when they started throwing in a free decoder, than I realised I pretty much got what I paid for.
I now simply accept that it'll disappaoint. I convert these models to HOn3, so leave the factory board in until the conversion is done and tested, meanwhile cutting off the orange caps stuck like leeches on the motor. Once it's running well, then I do the cost-a-little-more-than-free install useing a NCE.
I've tried every setting I can figire out on them and never had much luck in getting it to run reliably on the factory decoder, even untouched by my strange kit-bashed urges. YMMV
cacole For the locomotive with the NCE decoder, you can also adjust CVs 116 and 117 for smoother performance at low speed. The Bachmann will most lilkely never perform any better due to the low quality decoder they use. Changing the decoder in it may be your best option.
For the locomotive with the NCE decoder, you can also adjust CVs 116 and 117 for smoother performance at low speed.
The Bachmann will most lilkely never perform any better due to the low quality decoder they use. Changing the decoder in it may be your best option.
Actually those decoders will respond quite well to all CV settings including start volt.
The easiest way adjust CV 2 on the non sound locos. CV 2 is the start voltage setting. If you have a program track put a non sound loco on it and select the program track on the power cab by pushing thr prog/esc button four times then press enter. Your display wil show three selections. Press 2 for CV's and then the display will ask you to enter the cv number. Enter 2 and the display will read the setting. Raise it a couple of numbers and press enter. Push prog/esc to get out of the programming mode and push step one speed button. If it still does not start go back into the program mode and raise it some more and repeat the steps until you get movement. If it stats too fast then you can lower cv 2 a little until it starts at a speed you like. You can also do it by programming on the main but you would need to know what the cv 2 setting is currently because programming on the main does not give you the feed back. I am sure this method will work for the NCE decoder but I do not have any Bachman DCC ready locos so while I think it is pretty standard, I can't say for sure. I hope that helps.
CV2 adjusts the start voltage on all DCC decoders. To have your engine start to move sooner, you need to increase the value currently in CV2. It's purely trial and error. Keep increasing the value and testing your engine performance. You will eventually find a value that will allow your engine to just start moving on speed step one.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
I have 5 DCC locomotives, 3 with sound, 2 without. The sound locos all start moving when I set the speed control on my NCE Power Cab at 1. The two without sound don't start moving until the setting is up over 5, sometimes it seems to need to be even higher. I am wondering if there is a way to set the two non-sound locos to start moving at setting 1? I know there are ways to change the speed settings, but I'm not sure which one I want to use, nor do I have any experience changing any speed settings.
Sound locos are:
Atlas RS-3 with a QSI Titan-U
BLI 4-6-2 Paragon 2
Bachmann 2-6-0 with Sound Value
Non-Sound
Athearn RS-3 with an NCE D15SR plugged in
Bachmann RS-3, DCC on Board
I'm not too far along the DCC learning curve, so would appreciate beginners language instructions.
Thank you,