Hi Guys,
Now that you have convinced me to buy a couple of soundtraxx tsunami decoders instead of MRC I need some speakers. I see they have their run of the mill 1 inch speaker that goes with their speaker baffle. They also have their MEGA Bass 27mm speaker... The standard speaker is practically flat. The mega base is about .5 inches high. It doesn't sound like a lot but when i see how much room I have it might be too big. Here is my delema - I have read that all of these speakers need baffles - this speaker is pretty... large - would it still need baffle and if so can it just ecompase the speaker itself or does it need to be move volumous than the speaker. For example, if you use their standard 1 inch speaker and baffle, there is quite a bit of room in their for resenance. If you were to use this speaker and a their baffle, the baffle would basically just cover the whole speaker. Would this be ok? I am referring to part numbers 810054 and 810130. This would be going in a Genesis F3 A-B-A set.
Thanks Guys,
Scott
Scott,
I assume by baffle you mean an enclosure? Any speaker is much improved when mounted in an enclosure. The one's Soundtraxx makes work well. I used them in most of my installs. If you have enough space to stack them to gain more volume, that's good. Or you can build your own, what's essential is no leaks, it needs to be sealed.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I have a couple of those SoundTraxx Mega Bass speakers and they do not sound very good without the enclosure -- definitely required.
Hi Mike - thanks for the reply - yes - I mean enclosure when I say baffle - Sorry - I was just going by what the Soundtraxx website called them.
So seams the simple answer is yes - it needs an enclosure regardless of what kind of speaker it is.
Yes, you'll be much happier with the sound if you use an enclosure or baffle.
It's been awhile since I was to that part of their website. They differentiate I think because a baffle is just part of enclosure. Usually in this case, there's a tender shell or other space that can be easily closed up to act as an enclosure. The part that does just that is a baffle, but it can also be part of a larger enclosure.
Be sure to order the correct size gasket with it, makes things much easier and neater.
Radio Shack has the packing material that helps the sound more. Usually, you can't get much in with our applications, so I don't bother, but just thought I'd mention it as another option.
cacole I have a couple of those SoundTraxx Mega Bass speakers and they do not sound very good without the enclosure -- definitely required.
Is there actually any noticeable bass to them? Do they help? I continue to be disappointed with the sound in most diesels... WAY too high pitched.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
One of the awesome features of watching full size diesels move, is the whine AND RUMBLE of the bass frequencies coming from them.
No HO model can give you that experience.
I make my enclosures so that I can use the biggest Mega Bass speaker available, some over 1". I the sides of the diesel many times putting them in the radiators(flared for example) or tanks. I like thick cardstock since there is less resonance. I also use adhesive putty to dampen bad vibrations.
LOL on HO not sounding like real thing. NOBODY, NO downsized scale can do that. When you stand by a SD70 for example, your body feels the vibration from the ground and air a lot of times. That's why some people are going to large speakers around a layout. But, unless you're willing to not be a very good neighbor, it's hard to shake the ground and not disturb the neighbors. Plus ground pounding speakers are kind of costly--lol. Then you have the problem of scale sound, that is you should hear a loco up close more loudly than say 15' away in a tunnel. I think overall we're doing pretty good given the physics.
Richard
Bayfield Transfer Railway cacole I have a couple of those SoundTraxx Mega Bass speakers and they do not sound very good without the enclosure -- definitely required. Is there actually any noticeable bass to them? Do they help? I continue to be disappointed with the sound in most diesels... WAY too high pitched.
They help and I use two usually with custom enclosure. Also, you have to tune the sound with the equalizer, makes a big difference. Check the frequency response of the speakers and compare to equalizer bands. You want to cover the low end and that takes a good magnet, size and quality components just to start with
Big Boy Forever One of the awesome features of watching full size diesels move, is the whine AND RUMBLE of the bass frequencies coming from them. No HO model can give you that experience.
This is where most Modelers are going astray!
They THINK they need to hear the HO engine as loud as the real thing is when they can reach out and touch the Real engine!
YET - in scale feet - most of us are standing 250 to 300 SCALE Feet away about 2 or 3 real feet.
I did this experiemnet with a number of Moders when we were out raifanning.
The REAL engine was sitting on a siding and was close enough to us we could reach out and touch it!
I ask them how they liked the sound and got the response that the HO engines didn't sound that realsistic as the unit we were standing next to!
I stated the above about being a scale 200 feet away and said lets just walk back 200 feet and listen to what we could hear then!
Sure enough when we did - we didn't hear any of the little noises the engines was making up close
YET! They wanted to hear those little noises in their HO engine!
I ask why we couldn't hear them now from the real one and they had the nerve to say we were too far away!
Obviously they had NO CONCEPT of distance!
So it is no wonder the MFGs supply the engines with the Sound turn all the way up and we can't seem to duplicate the Real engine!
It is amazing how far some have the heads up ...!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
With the sound levels some guys set their engines to, the poor little HO guy's head would explode if he were standing trackside !
We go to extreme lengths to make everything proto-typically accurate but sound volume. People still want that 1:1. You should barely (if at all) hear your engine over ten feet away .... the horn being the exception of course.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
You guys are a riot! Lol "poor ho scale guy's head would blow up" ha!
scottso699 You guys are a riot! Lol "poor ho scale guy's head would blow up" ha!
Yeah, that's bad enough in 1:87. If model sound scaled like some folks seem to expect it to, then the 1: 1 heads of model railroaders might be exploding -- yech!
I suspect many comments about "not realistic enough" sound originate from "They want how much for that loco?" Don't buy them if they don't work for you. Lots of others enjoy sound. Many of those people turn it up too loud, but that's OK, too, provided some ear plugs are available for visiting operators.
And the whole "not enough bass" question seems to stem from our modern age where there's never enough bass for some. You should buy a car and spend $10k on a sound system if you want to wake up the hood with ground-pounding bass. Once scaled properly, you're too far away on all but the smallest layouts to hear the gut-churning thumps some folks associate with music.
That's true - there's the mentality of "if I paid $100 for a sound decoder, I wanna HEAR it !"
I'll admit myself to turning them up a bit on the loud side when I'm running them by myself just to hear it working. But during an operating session, they get turned way down. Nothing worse after about five minutes than a room full of engines with the volume cranked.
Mark R. Mark.
Yeah, that's gotta hurt...remember to wear ear protection, folks.
The first adjustment I make to a new decoder is to turn the master volume down to half or less. That eliminates the annoyance caused by loud high frequency sounds.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Bayfield Transfer RailwayIs there actually any noticeable bass to them? Do they help?
To give you some background, the term "High Bass" when used with speakers for DCC sound refers to a particular design of speaker that came on the market 10-ish or so years ago (maybe 15, I'm getting old) . IIRC correctly, they were first brought in by a Sn3 vendor, proved highly popular, then everyone started getting them.
I couldn't quote you the design feature that makes it so, but the term High Bass refers to inadequacy of previously available designs in that form-factor that this speaker overcomes. Revolutionary in its day, almost everyone has one or more now if they do DCC sound. Relative to other speakers, they did sound better in the low-end...but definitely not very cutting edge in the day of the sugar cube and other more exotic designs, merely making sure you get good sound with available quality hardware at a reasonable price when you spec it.
No one is trying to mis-represent anything here beyond the usual excesses of capitalism
Well, I actually do this ridiculous thing called "look at the frequency response."
A lot of speakers offered for sound units have a low-end limit of 500 hz or so, which is HIGHER than A in the treble clef. One reviewer noted that the "mega bass" speakers actually have noticeable output down to 150 Hz, which is at least lower than Middle C (261.something).And no, you won't get the "bowel quaking earthquake" effect of a real locomotive. But that isn't what I asked. A locomotive that puts out no sound below 500 Hz simply won't sound right.
The idea has been rolling around in my head of placing large support (5 to 10") woofer/midrange speakers around the layout, in strategic places with some kind of trigger electronic gizmo, (there's that word again), to switch between the different support speakers as the train moves into the area of that support speaker. If you had DCC you would still have that tiny speaker in the loco to give you high frequencies. That way the sound would be moving with the movement of the train, arround the layout and would add realism. Probably, multiple similar decoders,one in the loco, and one for each speaker or something like that, but that would get expensive and I'm not wealthy. Still, the concept seems possible, and "home made electronic gizmos" might do the trick.
In the meantime, I'll continue to play Lotto in my old age.
Big Boy Forever The idea has been rolling around in my head of placing large support (5 to 10") woofer/midrange speakers around the layout, in strategic places with some kind of trigger electronic gizmo, (there's that word again), to switch between the different support speakers as the train moves into the area of that support speaker. If you had DCC you would still have that tiny speaker in the loco to give you high frequencies. That way the sound would be moving with the movement of the train, arround the layout and would add realism. Probably, multiple similar decoders,one in the loco, and one for each speaker or something like that, but that would get expensive and I'm not wealthy. Still, the concept seems possible, and "home made electronic gizmos" might do the trick. In the meantime, I'll continue to play Lotto in my old age.
How would that work when you have four or five guys all running sound ?
You're simply describing SurroundTrax from Soundtrax. large speakers around the layout, train location detection switches the sound to the speaker near the loco. SUpports multiple locos running at the same time, too.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker You're simply describing SurroundTrax from Soundtrax. large speakers around the layout, train location detection switches the sound to the speaker near the loco. SUpports multiple locos running at the same time, too. --Randy
.... And I thought multiple engines with sound got annoying after a while ! I can't imagine multiple subs all responding to those same engines as well !
Bayfield Transfer Railway Well, I actually do this ridiculous thing called "look at the frequency response." A lot of speakers offered for sound units have a low-end limit of 500 hz or so, which is HIGHER than A in the treble clef. One reviewer noted that the "mega bass" speakers actually have noticeable output down to 150 Hz, which is at least lower than Middle C (261.something).And no, you won't get the "bowel quaking earthquake" effect of a real locomotive. But that isn't what I asked. A locomotive that puts out no sound below 500 Hz simply won't sound right.
Tsunami's low end is 62.5Hz. It works fine with the right speaker, given again, we're speaking of scale sound. It can growl when piped through a stereo system. But, the best HO speaker I've found only goes to 200Hz. If there's better out there, please advise. Tsunami's have 3 bands(almost half of them) below 500. 500 is their midrange.
Train Modeler Tsunami's low end is 62.5Hz. It works fine with the right speaker, given again, we're speaking of scale sound. It can growl when piped through a stereo system. But, the best HO speaker I've found only goes to 200Hz. If there's better out there, please advise. Tsunami's have 3 bands(almost half of them) below 500. 500 is their midrange. Richard
Richard - which speaker are you using with your Tsunami decoders?
Randy
Do you have info on that?
scottso699 Train Modeler Tsunami's low end is 62.5Hz. It works fine with the right speaker, given again, we're speaking of scale sound. It can growl when piped through a stereo system. But, the best HO speaker I've found only goes to 200Hz. If there's better out there, please advise. Tsunami's have 3 bands(almost half of them) below 500. 500 is their midrange. Richard Richard - which speaker are you using with your Tsunami decoders?
These are the main 3 guys I buy speakers from. The first guy has some Intermediate Oval Speakers that go down to 200. He also has some Bass Reflex which sound good, but no specs on frequency range. The 1.22HB goes down to 330. I try use one of the Intermediate Oval and one of the 1.22(or smaller) in each install. I always use JMRI to set up the equalizer and sometimes move speakers/enclosures around to maximize sound quality. All of my enclosures are custom made so that I can maximize speaker size and sound quality. I also have to frequently cut/file on the inside of loco and frame of speaker.
I learned by and am still learning by experimenting with the equalizer and various speakers to see if and how they will respond to a particular frequency range.
http://www.dccinstallsandsales.com/
http://www.litchfieldstation.com/xcart/home.php
http://www.tonystrains.com/
Again, if anyone knows of good speakers in the 1 1/4" or less size range that goes below 200Hz, please advise.
I have used the mega bass speakers and they do sound better than the average oval. Yes, they need an enclosure, But in a pinch the tender shell will work. Mike is right that these have been around for a while.
They are the only speakers I have seen for this application with decent sized magnets on them. They look like little guitar amplifier cabinet speakers. I have used most of the current crop of speakers (with the exception of sugar cubes - on the list) in steam sound installs. I think the best sounding is an old PFM side ported speaker left over from an early PFM install. Close second is the mega bass.
Sound is such a subjective thing that it is hard to make definitive statements about it. Suffice to say if it sounds good to you, it sounds good - but maybe not to me!! To this end make adjustments and try various approaches until things sound as good as they can to you. Not all of my installs sound the same due to the enclosure, shell configuration and a host of other factors.
I don't expect to see great bass response in small speakers due to the finicky nature of bass sound in audio technology (the waves are long and bounce very funny). You generally need pretty good sized cone/speakers to create good bass sound.
Your mileage may vary,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
I'm a bass guitarist and a past recording "artist"/engineer. Bass frequencies are omni-directional. They kind of fan out across the floor and..build up in corners of the room. That's why recording listening rooms have bass traps (usually cylindrical foam tubes) in the corners.
Bass speaker cabinets, both stereo systems and bass guitar amplifiers are often ported. They use a hole sawed hole in a "tuned" portion of the plywood cabinet to direct the omni-directional bass frequencies out of the cabinet into the room at a more straightforward manner. The tuned aspect also has something to do with choosing the best low bass frequencies/ and "air puffs" you can get out of the speaker/cabinet.
Because of these acoustical factors, I firmly believe (and from what I"ve heard) speaker enclosures are the best choice to accomplish the above even if in a more miniature manner. Downward facing speakers also generally give the best bass sound in HO anyway, because those omni-directional frequencies (high frequencies travel in more of a straight line) are allowed to bounce back off of your benchtop/roadbed, etc. and spread around a bit more.
This stuff is subtle in our scales but it does make an obvious difference in most installations.
Some advocate just using the tender shell or body as the "larger" enclosure and claim the sound is better but that's a minority opinion by a large margin.
The use of two speakers stacked or otherwise does sound pretty cool at least on the steamers my friend has done installs on. I attend operating sessions and if the sound is kept subtle (very) all locos can run without driving everyone nuts! If you can hear it 10 ft. away it's probably too loud.
Hope that helps even though I'm not an electrically savvy/technical guy.
Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.