Are Peco code 83 Streamline turnouts DCC friendly?
The ones designated as "insulfrog" are.
If you cut two jumpers on the Electrofrog and use switch motor contacts to power the frog, they are as well. The instructions even show you where to cut, and the ties are cut out on the underside to access the place to cut.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Study the below site. He has lots of good DCC info. I wish more people would realize a picture is worth a thousand words much of the time, plus you get a good link.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
This is another excellent website, comparing and contrasting the Peco Insulfrog versus the Peco Electrofrog.
http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.com/2011/06/insulfrog-or-electrofrog-that-is.html
This is a 4-page discussion of the Peco turnouts.
As you scroll down to the bottom of each page, there is a link to the next page.
If you read and study all four pages, you will be ready to tackle the Peco turnouts.
Alton Junction
My railroad is nscale. I started out using Peco insulfrog turnouts and had lots of trouble with dead spots in the frog so I switched to using electrofrogs especially in switch yards where a lots of switches close to each other They seem to be much more reliable with DCC smaller engines. Only thing I had to do was put insulating track connectors on the frog rails and run jumpers to those rails to keep them "hot". No cutting of jumpers like someone else said. I still have some insulfrog turnouts, the ones tht dont short. I may replace those someday. So, I think it depends on your situation, scale, engine type, etc. I have had much better reliable turnouts using electrofrogs with shorter wheel base nscale enghines.
darrel480 I still have some insulfrog turnouts, the ones tht dont short. I may replace those someday. So, I think it depends on your situation, scale, engine type, etc. I have had much better reliable turnouts using electrofrogs with shorter wheel base nscale enghines.
I still have some insulfrog turnouts, the ones tht dont short. I may replace those someday. So, I think it depends on your situation, scale, engine type, etc. I have had much better reliable turnouts using electrofrogs with shorter wheel base nscale enghines.
On my HO DCC layout, I use insulfrogs with no mods. There is a possibility that you get a short by engine wheels bridging the gap in the frog. This seemed to happen to me most often with my Bachmann engines. You can insulate this area with CA or nail polish or you can file the gap wider. I chose to file as i felt this was the more permanent solution.
By the way, I do not run particularly short engines so I have had no problem with the unpowered frog, that is appreciably shorter than the frog on comparable Atlas turnouts. Also no insulated joiners are needed for the insulfrog turnouts. They can be powered from both sides.
Hope this helps.
As stated above, Alan Carter's website showing photos of how to wire Electrofrog turnouts is gteat info.
I discovered how to mod my code 75 Electrofrogs about 12 years ago when building my layout. I say "discovered" because Peco paperwork only described half the procedure. After Peco changed their code 100 switches to the same design as the 75's about 5 years ago (83's have it too). I installed them the same way in two local club layouts.
By cutting and adding the jumpers as shown and providing external frog switching (I use the Tortoise contacts), you make the Electrofrog so short-proof that you would almost have to pour filings or liquid solder into it to get a short. The key is in the photos on Alan's website, where one sees:
1. the insulated gaps isolating the frog area are shown halfway between the frog and the point pivots. By enlarging the frog "X", Peco has ensured that metal wheels are no longer an issue at the frog. Unlike some designs still sold.
2. by splitting and jumpering the point-rail/closure rail sets to the stock rails, the open point-rail is no longer the opposite polarity of the stock rail, so no metal wheel short can occur there either.
An important additional benefit of the new jumpers is that the points no longer get power only from contacting the inside of the stock rails, a primary place for crud to collect.
And powered metal frogs have not only the benefit of better continuity for old or small engines, but they don't wear down like plastic frogs.
Result for me: ruinning over 100 Peco EF's for many years with no maintainance other than cleaning the railheads and occasionally brushing debris out of the flangeways. There really isn't any downside.
Disclaimer: I have no financilal ties to Peco other than happy customer.
Hal
richhotrain darrel480 I still have some insulfrog turnouts, the ones tht dont short. I may replace those someday. So, I think it depends on your situation, scale, engine type, etc. I have had much better reliable turnouts using electrofrogs with shorter wheel base nscale enghines. So, what caused the shorts on the Insulfrogs? Rich
So, what caused the shorts on the Insulfrogs?
HAs to be the only place an Insulafrog CAN short, unless it's very defective. That being the tiny bit of plastic insulating the frog points, if a wheel is wide enough to touch both across the plastic at the same time, instant short. That's why all the recommendations for nail polish and whatnot to extend the insulated section. Standard N scale wheels are correspondinylu less scale than standard HO wheels, so it's no surpsise this happens in N scale. Now the N scale Finescale people, like my friend's layout, they end up all being hand laid turnouts, and they are gapped like Electrofrogs (more accurately, like a turnout built witht he Fast Tracks method, so they have the point blades isolated from each other). In my friend's case, he in some cases didn;t cut the gaps for the frog rails until nearly a foot beyond the frog. The frog plus that length of track is all powered via switch machine contacts. Nice thing with that is if you run against a turnout, your train will stop long before it fouls the switch.
You can do the same with Electrofrogs - no rule says the insualted joiners or gaps need to be right on the actual frog rails of the turnout, you can run more track off the end and gap it further down the line, so long as you DO hvae the gaps, and no feeders between the gaps and the frog, unless they come from contacts that change with the points.
Hello to Randy and all others who contributed here.
I read everything with great interest; yet likely comfortably understood about 50-60% of it.....lol. I have many brand new/never used/still in the plastic sleeves Peco HO Insulfrog #6 turnouts; mostly right hands. I have bought these over time to spread out the cost. My plan is to build a shelf layout with an industrial park theme. DCC will be supplied by a MRC Prodigy Advance 2. The layout will be upon hollow core doors and will be an "L" pattern......@10 feet by 5 feet.
Guys, I'm kind of like Abe Lincoln in an approximate quote when he said, "If I have a tree to cut down in six hours, I will spend the first five hours studying/planning and the last hour cutting down the tree". My supplies I now have in hand; accumulated over the last six months or so....ready and waiting..... I've read so many model railroading books that I'm dizzy. I have two brand new-in-the box Athearn Genesis EMD MP-15 dcc with sound switchers eager to go to work.
Know what I'm most concerned about? My Peco Insulfrog turnouts!!! Are they really that exotic? I've gone with Peco because: (1)The factories in China had not made enough Atlas yet for me to buy in the current year (2)Everyone seems to have said that Peco was top shelf and DCC friendly. One of those websites......Bobs?.....with all those red and blue wiring diagrams over real turnout pics......were showing six pairs, I believe, of feeder wires throughout the turnout. Before the points, in the midst of all, and after the points!! Yikes! Is that really necessary? Does not sound too friendly to this non-engineer!!
I hope my upcoming layout will look 'permanent'........but have the capability of being moved (safely keeping all those pricey Peco turnouts intact). I do have a soldering gun and can use it (if I have to). I have been planning to use the Peco power joiners and to affix the track to foam (upon the hollow core doors) lightly....(i.e. with a small amount of white glue...and maybe delicate track pins).
I will be appreciative of your help in answering and expanding on this question: "Do you predict I will have smooth operation with my two Athearn Genesis EMD MP15-2 switchers upon my Peco turnouts......powered only with Peco power joiners at the start of each turnout....OR.....should I be prepped to solder six pairs of power feeds on each of those pretty Peco turnouts?".
Thanks in advance for those who stayed with me in the preceding. Maybe you will either comfort me in my undertaking with my first 'real' layout.....or convince me I should have just stayed with the Bachman EZ Track DCC setup!! I am eager to be successful with the electrical topics encountered in scale model railroading. Heretofore, I have mostly spent my hobby time in structure making and have quite a number of my kit built structures upon my continuous run Bachman EZ Track DCC layout. Others are ready to be placed on my future shelf switching layout.......pending reliable locomotive movememt over and through those Peco turnouts!!!
Thanks again for your feedback!!!!!
Mike
Mike, Peco Insulfrogs are DCC Friendly with an insulated "dead" plastic frog. More importantly, they are power routing, so not all of the rail segments on the turnout are live at all times. To maximize performance of the Peco Insulfrog, you should add a pair of feeders to each of the three ends of the turnout.
The question is, do you want it to work ok, or do you want it to work RELIABLY for a LONG TIME. For optimum performance, yes, those extra feeders are necessary. WIll it work without them? Sure it will. Until too much dirt gets under one of the contact areas, or you get too much paint in there while painting your rails.
Peco Insulfrogs are electrically pretty much idential to Atlas Custom Line switches. To get the most reliable operation with Atlas, you need extra feeders as well, so as to not have the potential to lose power in the closure rails because the rivets loosened up too much. I never added those extra feeds to the closure rails, but I DID put feeders on both rails at all 3 points of the switch. They all worked fine, but the longest running period any of them had was about 5 years.
Just like you don;t rely on unsoldered rail joiners to carry power between all track sections, the same goes for the moving/sliding contact surfaces in a turnout. They can and will gunk up over time, reducing or stopping the flow of electricity. The extra feeders prevent that from happening.
The main difference between the Peco and Atlas is that the insualted frog area on the Peco is very small. Pro, even smaller locos don;t have as much of a dead area to get hung up on, and may work just fine. Con, the two rails that need to be insulated from one another are VERY close together and an out of spec wheel can sometimes bridge the gap, causing a short.
Thanks, Randy and Rich for your feedback. I think I can appreciate the value of reliable longer term operation. When we talk about adding a pair of feeders at each of the three points of the switch I get a little fuzzy. One of the websites.....Bob's I think.....was especially graphic with colored wires over a real photo. I got kind of confused with that one even (maybe it's a perceptual LD kinda thing!). I'm going to consistently use black wire for the 'south' side of my tracks and red wire for the 'north' side of my tracks. I can see clearly the first pair of feeders being near the start of the single track end of the switch. Would be most appreciate of a description as to where the other two pairs would go. I would know that each feeder wire would connect to its' black or red bus wire. Just want to 'see' the sites of the additional two pairs........the sites of the 90 degree curved feeders to be soldered to each side of the track in these two locations. Believe you both do not favor a pair of feeders before the hinge of the points (forgot proper language there) Thanks so much for writing back!
123mike When we talk about adding a pair of feeders at each of the three points of the switch I get a little fuzzy. I'm going to consistently use black wire for the 'south' side of my tracks and red wire for the 'north' side of my tracks. I can see clearly the first pair of feeders being near the start of the single track end of the switch. Would be most appreciate of a description as to where the other two pairs would go. Mike
When we talk about adding a pair of feeders at each of the three points of the switch I get a little fuzzy.
I'm going to consistently use black wire for the 'south' side of my tracks and red wire for the 'north' side of my tracks. I can see clearly the first pair of feeders being near the start of the single track end of the switch. Would be most appreciate of a description as to where the other two pairs would go.
Just to let you know....Rich's wiring diagram, would be for a insulated frog turnout.
Electro-frog turnouts...you would have to use two insulated joiners, the center rails after the frog, then the feeders.
Take Care!
Frank
zstripe Just to let you know....Rich's wiring diagram, would be for a insulated frog turnout. Electro-frog turnouts...you would have to use two insulated joiners after the frog, then the feeders. Take Care! Frank
Electro-frog turnouts...you would have to use two insulated joiners after the frog, then the feeders.
Rich,
Look at my post again. Not the quote.
C'mon Frank, you edited your post after I lifted your exact quote.
Let's not confuse matters. Mike specifically asked about the location of the three sets of feeders on a Peco Insulfrog and not about gaps on a Peco Electrofrog.
I was editing my post when you were posting. Not trying to confuse anyone.
Confusion would have come from your diagram, without mentioning that the diagram was for a insulated frog turnout.
Bob Schuknecht Are Peco code 83 Streamline turnouts DCC friendly?
Bob,
Something to read:
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/nswmn/y_dcc_friendly_MG.htm
zstripe Rich, I was editing my post when you were posting. Not trying to confuse anyone. Confusion would have come from your diagram, without mentioning that the diagram was for a insulated frog turnout. Take Care! Frank
Your statement is not necessarily true and I don't want to play the circle game.
So Have it Your way.
Have a Good One!
richhotrain 123mike When we talk about adding a pair of feeders at each of the three points of the switch I get a little fuzzy. I'm going to consistently use black wire for the 'south' side of my tracks and red wire for the 'north' side of my tracks. I can see clearly the first pair of feeders being near the start of the single track end of the switch. Would be most appreciate of a description as to where the other two pairs would go. Mike Take a look at this photo. The red and black dots show the recommended location of the feeders on the turnout. Rich
Take a look at this photo. The red and black dots show the recommended location of the feeders on the turnout.