rrinker That's because they aren't 'new' decoders, they are ancient junky Lenz decoders that also don't have silent running - just like I said. --Randy
That's because they aren't 'new' decoders, they are ancient junky Lenz decoders that also don't have silent running - just like I said.
--Randy
The design may be old, but the decoders are certainly new.
I just browsed the first page of google images that come up for Digitrax Schematics, closest thing to a schematic is for accessories like the Locobuffer, and for attaching different types of signals to the SE8C. Other 'schematics are a layout of devices, like how you connect multiple boosters and throttles. If THAT was the basis for saying NCE was 'better' because it has a seperate bus to connect the command station to boosters, independent of the throttle bus, then there is definitely a lack of understanding for the differences between a polled network and a peer fo peer CDMA network.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinkerAnything that old should have been replaced as a mattr of course - if it doesn't support Ops Mode it probably doesn't have other nice things like silent running...
It doesn't have to be old to not support Ops mode programming, the current non-sound Bachmann decoders don't (at least the N-scale ones don't). I always replace the Bachmann decoders, but not everyone does, plus I don't always do it immediately and I certainly want to be able to program them until I get a chance to replace them.
rrinker Hmm, where did you get schematics for Digitrax?
It was a long time ago (maybe seven or eight years) I just found one on the internet and the other (I can't remember which one) I got of one of the Yahoo groups when I asked.
I just now Googled Digitrax Schematic and all sorts of stuff came up in images. But alas I don't know what I am looking at so it may not be what you are wanting.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
mlehman Bob, My ops use the NCE hammerheads all the time, I have two, plus a wired PowerCab I can also throw into the fray, in addition to lighter weight throttles. They've done silly things to individual units before, but you'd really have to get lucky with your random keystrokes to line up exactly with the required procedure to broadcast a engine number change. Might as well buy a lottery ticket. Don't tell me I can't win...it's just that I don't. And they won't. If you're really worried about that, you can lock the decoder.
Bob,
My ops use the NCE hammerheads all the time, I have two, plus a wired PowerCab I can also throw into the fray, in addition to lighter weight throttles. They've done silly things to individual units before, but you'd really have to get lucky with your random keystrokes to line up exactly with the required procedure to broadcast a engine number change. Might as well buy a lottery ticket. Don't tell me I can't win...it's just that I don't.
And they won't.
If you're really worried about that, you can lock the decoder.
Mike
You may be the exception to the general rule in my area!
While I can see that expense is a factor - and the use of the smaller NCE throttles is a lot less expensive, most NCE layouts the owner provides ALL of the controllers!
And what gets me - even the Layout Owner NEVER uses the hammerhead - unless there is a program issue!
With us Digitrax guys - we (the Operators) all have our own Throttles and normally bring them to anyones Digitrax layout to run with!
This way the Layout Owner doesn't have to supply all 20 or so Throttles!
And with the Digitrax System - there is NO NEED to ASSIGN throttles to the Command Station.
With the type of Loconet system - the Command station does NOT need to know how many Throttles are out on the layout.
Unlike ALL of the other systems that need to Asign Throttles - OR the Command station will NEVER read that throttle!
In the end - it sure helps the Layout Owner - in NOT having to supply all of the Throttles for each Engineer!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
See my models by clicking on the link below
Blue Tombstone Gallery
Anything that old should have been replaced as a mattr of course - if it doesn't support Ops Mode it probably doesn't have other nice things like silent running.
Of course it's possible to ops mode program all locos - just program to address 0. If a specific address is alreadey selected though, not going to happen. Now if 3 people all have a loco #345.....
cmrproducts...And besides the preferred method of Programming is On the Main (POM)! So there really isn't much need for that Programming Track!..
Until you come across a decoder that doesn't support Ops mode programming ("Programming on the Main").
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
One of the reasons (I have been told) that NCE doesn't do Programming while the Layout track power is on is that they do not want to add more memory and the processor is near its max.
And besides the preferred method of Programming is On the Main (POM)!
So there really isn't much need for that Programming Track!
Although that is also WHY most of the Layouts that run NCE - NEVER Allow the Operators to have the Power Pro Hammerhead Throttle that can program - for Fear of the NUBE reprogramming every engine on the layout to the same number.
And don't say it can't be done! ;-)
Hmm, where did you get schematics for Digitrax? I'd love a set of schematics for my equipment. I don't think Digitrax gives that out.
Comparing pictures of the insides of an NCE command station and having opened up my Digitrax stuff, the systems are quite similar. Biggest difference is that NCE uses a Z80 embedded microcontroller and Digitrax uses PIC processors. Apparantly the PIC used in the DCS100 is a faster chip since you can do programming on the program track with it while trains are running with no problems....
BATMAN I have to admit that while I can easily wire up the buss, autoreversers, frog juicers and a few other things. I am useless when things get technical. I had nowhere to turn when looking for help on choosing a DCC system. After a while I had decided Digitrax and NCE were the choices. I got the schematics of both and presented them to the two technicians in the family. One of which had designed the largest cell phone network in the country. Both of them said without hesitation that NCE was the better more up to date design. Whether they were right or not I don't know but that is how I made my choice.
I have to admit that while I can easily wire up the buss, autoreversers, frog juicers and a few other things. I am useless when things get technical. I had nowhere to turn when looking for help on choosing a DCC system. After a while I had decided Digitrax and NCE were the choices. I got the schematics of both and presented them to the two technicians in the family. One of which had designed the largest cell phone network in the country. Both of them said without hesitation that NCE was the better more up to date design. Whether they were right or not I don't know but that is how I made my choice.
This was one reason I built such a large layout as I could NOW run the trains like they were supposed to be run as the DCC made it so easy.
As I introduced others to the DCC - they too were excited about how easy it was to run the trains and how much more realsitic the trains ran (running slow switching).
They also learned that while the DCC looked so complicated - it wasn't, as I was showing them the basics of acquiring engines - setting up consists and dispatching.
All of the basics they would use each week we ran!
I probably have had over 100 visitors and Operators to the layout over the past 10 yerars!
I would also show them the 3 basic programming things that they needed to get their engines running after putting in a decoder (which they all have learned too).
This excuse (I don't know anything about electricity) is pretty flimsy - I have had Girls able to install decoders! ;-)
And as for the problem with the Manuals - this is sad that the companies have such poor writing skills that it takes 4 pages to explain how to program a 4 digit engine number!
where there is only 8 putton presses to set a 4 digit address not Four Pages!
I run Decoder Programming Clinics all of the time at our club (which has been ALL DCC since 2001) and the Members state all of the time -
"Is this all it takes to do Programming?"
"YES! - This is all that it is!"
It also goes a long way in having others that use the same system you are running - so you have help when running into problems.
I get calls (and E-mails) ALL of the time to answer simple questions that to the Owner seem overwhelming but once the theory is explained - they now have the undertanding as to why it is supposed to act the way it does!
Caveat: I am emphatically NOT a DCC person. In my little corner of Central Japan it's analog DC, just like my prototype (just 12 volts, not 1500.)
As a matter of semantics, Most Popular and Best have no known relationship.
Most popular would have to be determined by comparing sales - information which the manufacturers don't provide.
Best would have to be determined by which system's capabilities most exactly fit the owner's profile of desires. Since this is entirely subjective (no two owners being 100% equal) any value discussion is effectively meaningless.
Chuck (Former statistician modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Jack W.
I have to argue the point about NCE having Radio before Digitrax!
Digitrax had it as did Lenz (but Lenz used a Telephone handset)
The main reason I wnet with Digitrax was the RADIO!
This was back in 1998!
I became a Dealer then to be sure I could get the DCC products as the companies were still getting sorted out!
SO - effectvely DIGITRAX was first with a stand alone RADIO - and NOT using a PHONE! Easy DCC was the next one with RADIO! (NOT BACHMANN EASYDCC)!
I do believe Digitrax came out with their radio system before NCE did.
The red herring though is "sending it back for upgrades" - the architecture of Digitrax is completely different from everyone else's, in that it's a peer to peer system, not a master/slave design. So the 'brains' are not entirely within the command station. There only ever was one upgrade for the DCS100, because of a bug unknown at the time that did not allow functions higher than F8 to work - at the time, F8 was as high as the NMRA standard went so there was no real way to validate higher than F8 - the packet format had not been specified yet. Additional extensions, to the now standard F29, the command station with Digittrax does nothing for that, it merely generates the packet and puts it on the rails, the F13+ commands are all generated in the throttle.
This is why I greatly dislike those comparison charts at Tony's, the information isn't completely correct and there's absolutely no context given so you look at that column that says you have to send it back for upgrades and view that as a negative. I really wish Digitrax hadn;t given in to the pressure and made all their latest devices field upgradable (just flash new code in them, not even a chip replacement - so now even easier). It's only made it possible to ship products before they are as thoroughly tested because hey, we can always publish an update if we find a problem. It caused a lot fo problems with the Duplex radio system and there was an issue with the Zephyr Xtra that more than likely never would have been there if they held off and tested more with the idea that it wouldn't be convenient to fix later. I'd rather something be right and arrive later than have it now only to find a problem down the road, but then I'm not most consumers.
When our large HO scale club wanted to switch to DCC control many years ago, I downloaded the user manuals from every system that was then available.
One of our primary "wants" was radio control, which Digitrax did NOT offer at that time, but NCE and CVP did.
MRC was way behind the power curve in every respect, and the cost of a Lenz system made it untouchable.
When we considered initial installation cost, expandability, customer support, and upgrades, we went with NCE.
Another consideration at that time was that NCE and CVP could have thieir main CPU upgraded by the user because the chip was socketed, but Digitrax had to be sent back to the factory to be upgraded.
If we were making the purchase decision today, Digitrax might be our first choice because of their LocoNet capability for signals, etc., but NCE has served us very well over the years.
I use Digitrax and I am satisfied.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Randy,
When I was struggling over the idea of going to DCC, one of the things I researched was the systems used by the folks whose layout appeared in Great Model Railroads. I have all the issues, and after compiling the numbers, it came down to Digitrax, followed by NCE, with all the others significantly behind.
It didn't take long to figure out that it that Digitrax or NCE would work best for me. Their components were readily available at discounts, lots of folks used them successfully (esp on this forum), and they both had all the bells and whistles in their product line.
I had tried out NCE, and liked the handheld controller over the Digitrax. But, I could more easily understand the operational aspects of the Digitrax. Frankly, the design of the grey controllers/boosters swayed me over.
So I bought two of the systems, and they work great and I have no complaints. But ironically, all the decoders I picked up since then have been NCE.
Anyway, I don't think its hard to imagine that either NCE or Digitrax is the sales leader. But what really matters is how many of those sales resulted in satisfied users.................
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Well, there's talk of features and adaptability, intuitivity, reliability. But in the end something is going south. Then it's customer support...From my experience with decoders, IMHO, it's Digitrax, TCS (not a complete system), NCE, MRC. I will not comment on Lenz or others I have no experience with. System wide I started with MRC, had stability issues, and was talked out of it and into Digitrax by PhD. Electrical engineering professor (as I've posted elsewhere) whose specialty is...pulse width modulation control (that's dcc)! He's never steered me wrong and again, I would agree the Panama City crew designs the cleanest waveform hardware! No regrets here.
There seems to be general agreement that Digitrax is the most popular DCC system, followed closely by NCE.
Rich
Alton Junction
Based on research I did 18 months ago, using published layout profiles:
Digitrax: 35%
NCE: 32%
CVP: 13%
Lenz: 12%
MRC: 5%
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
I don't think this is a horse race, to be decided by photo-finish if necessary. Digitrax, NCE, and Lenz are the big three, although Lenz is there more because of it's global rep than US sales. Investing in any of them will prevent being orphaned in case of a industry shakeout.
Numbers don't really tell the tale here about what's best for YOU. Try 'em all for that.
Digitrax is big, because they've been around a long time and sold a bunch of systems, almost a de facto standard many places, as it is here. In our NMRA division, everyone else is Digitrax. I'm the lone NCE user.
Personally, I find very little that is intuitive about Digitrax. It seems designed for those comfortable finding their way around a computer, which is a lot of people but not everyone. True, I only use it at other people's places, so that likely accounts for me being continuously baffled by it.
What's telling is that all the Digitrax users seem equally baffled much of the time, asking each other, "How do you do this?" when we are operating elsewhere, so they're just like me in needing to ask how to do basic things. And when they come here to operate on my unfamiliar NCE throttles? Rarely a question about throttles. I think that speaks volumes about NCE's ease of use. I prefer to spend extra effort to learn about running my RR, not running my throttle. YMMV
Before purchasing my Digitrax Super Chief, I downloaded the manuals from several Mfg websites. I determined that at that moment in time, Digitrax had the greatest capability and expandability. With that capability comes geatest complexity. I am sure that many people would be confused and intimidated by that complexity. As I have grown with my layout, I have come to apreciate that complexity. Not everyone will. Help each other forums probably reflect the complexity.
I love my Digitrax. People who have difficulty with complexity might not. I love the fact that I have not yet found anything it cannot do.
I have tracked the various Yahoo DCC Groups (MFG specific) for some time (as I needed to do a stats project) and once the project was over I just kept on with it - as it was certainly interesting to watch how the values changed over many years).
What I did was at the beginning of each month I would mark down the total number of members of the various groups and graph them out watching how they trend.
While quite a number would use these numbers to state the Yahoo DCC Group with the highest number of members had the most problems and therefore not really that popular.
Others would come up with their own scenario to show their brand was better as they stated that so few were on the Yahoo Group ment it was a big seller.
Stats can be made to read anything and this what the purpose of my project was.
But in looking over the current number of members per each Yahoo Group
Digitrax is #1
NCE is #2 - with slightly more than half as many members
Lenz is #3
MRC is #4
Roco #5
EasyDCC is #6
Zemo #7
Bachmann #8
So using the analigy that the Yahoo Group with the least members (being these Groups are HELP Groups) and those with the least means that, that Brand is the easiest to use - therefore the ASSumed more popular (which is are REAL STRETCH)!
It was mentioned on one of the YHOO Goups that with Digitrax having the most members - it therefore must be having the MOST PROBLEMS!
While it might have been done Tongue In Cheek the group stating this was next on the list.
Again using that analigy - they must also have a lot of problems being second!
As I stated above - Stats can be made to read anything! ;-)
As to which MFG is more popular - ask any one that owns a system and it is the one they are using! - Which therefore is also the best one! ;-)
I didn't say it would be statisticaly acurate, I said it would be interesting.
But the problem there is it would only capture members of the forums here. Or if on the main Kalmbach site, then pretty much only subscribers who also happen to be online. Which is less than all subscribers. Same problem if one of the otehr magazines, paper or electronic, would do the same thing. Maybe if they ALL did it, with the same options, and they were all combined - though there are people who visit here as well as those otehr sites - and several not associated with any publication as well. Still limiting the source set to those modelers who are online - granted I'd expect a larger percentage of DCC users would have some online presence vs the overall group of model railroaders.