Well guys and gals, after weeks of wiring and testing and running trains in my yard, I have another short. Everything was working fine until I cut in the South switch to the yard tonight. I have a short again. Once I remove the switch everything is fine and trains are moving in the yard again. What did I do wrong this time? I'm currently uploading another video showing the trouble area. Once uploaded Ill post the link again.
HO Scale modeler of Union Pacific and Iowa Chicago and Eastern Railroads.
Chad,
What brand of turnout are we taking about, and what scale? I suspect you will need to use insulated rail joiners or cut gaps.....
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
That information would be helpful, Im dealing with a Peco Insulfrog in HO Scale.
You must have a feeder backwards again. Unless this time you have created a reverse loop. Taking out a straight piece and plugging in an Insulfrog turnout with no other changes should never create a short.
Also, just some stills would show the track plan and the wires, doesn;t have to be a video each time!
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Video Link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oct4pHito5w
I can;t tell fromt he video, but does that track where the UP loco is stiing in front of the station connect to the front part of the layout to the left there? if it does, you have a reverse loop.
A sketch of the track plan would be better than the video to see what's going on here.
Randy,
The way the yard is set up is that track where the unit is, (track runs in front of station) is the engine service lead. You can enter the yard from the south switch (problem switch) and you come to the engine house lead switch first, you line that reverse it takes you to the engine house. Leave it normal and you enter track 1 of the yard. I'll try to sketch up a track plan tomorrow.
Chad
Randy is right. The video is too long and next to useless in trying to analyze where the fault lies.
We went through this before with your prior shorting problem. Forget the video, we need to see a track plan.
You say that the problem turnout is a Peco Insulfrog. Is it for sure? Double check it. It wouldn't be the first time that someone on this forum incorrectly reported the type of turnout being used. I am not saying that you are wrong. We just want to be certain that you are right.
If you created a reverse loop, you will need to add gaps even though the turnout may be an Insulfrog.
The other likely problem is a pair of feeders that got crossed creating a reverse polarity issue.
Rich
Alton Junction
Insulfrogs should not matter. They can be powered from the frog end, even. They are wired just like Atlas, with jumpers underneath connecting the closure rails with the frog rails.
As for if it really is an Insulfrog, if it's what was held up close in the video it certainly is, you can see the frog gaps where they are supposed to be on the Insulfrog. Now - you ARE using them straight from the package, right? They aren't second hand that may have been modified, or altered by you in any way?
Randy, if you recall Chad's last video, what he shows, what he says, and what he does are not always the same thing.
I don't mean to be disrepectful in any way, but I still recall 1:19 of that last video. So, before concluding that it is an (unmodified) Insulfrog, we need confirmation.
While the shorting turnout on the layout may well be an Insulfrog, we cannot be absolutely certain just because he is holding up an Insulfrog in front of the camera while he points to the shorting turnout on the layout.
The video is hard to see, but it does look like a reversing loop, and that switch happens to be where it rejoins the Maine.
The problem is not with the switch, it is with the tracks, and that is where it comes together.
So it is an INTERLOCING PROBLEM. You have not drawn out your interlocking plant. Draw your interlocking plant as a straight line diagram. Trains enter from the south and leave from the north. There will be no problem. Except of course that your northbound track loops around and heads south again on what was the northbound track. THAT IS A LOOP, and must be fixed. Now you can look at your diagram and decide whre the gaps and signals will go to protect the interlocking plant.
If you are using powered switches line up the toggles in a row as found in the interlocking machine. Have switches fro signals as well as for switch points. Even if you never built it electrically, go through the troubble of drawing it out, signals, points and levers, and then you can visualize who is doing what to whom.
I would isolate north of the north switch.
Your train passes the south switch on the main it must receive a RED SIGNAL short of the north switch. When you move the North Switch to accept the train, you will also move the South Switch and give your train a Green Signal. Now it can work the yard via the south switch.
GAP the track between the South Switch and the North Switch (on the main line), tie the two switches together under one lever, and when the south switch lines to the main the main gets its power from the south switch. When you move the switches, the main will get its power from the north switch.
FIN, no problem
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
. Leaving off rail joiner has fixed the issue. Just need to add feeders now.
Yup, but when you put the feeders in the problem will come back, especially when the locomotive crosses the gap.
LIONS like their interlocking plants!
The switch seen in the photo is clearly an Insulafrog, so that's not the problem. If the track plan is what is shown in the sketch in an earlier image, then there are no reverse loops. Does it short with just the switch in place, or only when a train runs over it? It appears the track on the diverging route is slightly kinked where it connects to the switch, and Insulfrogs CAN short if a wheel trad bridges the small space between the two frog rails, just slightly past the plastic bit.
If it is backward feeders, leaving the gap will stop the short, but it should short as soon as a train runs over it.
It also appears this was all working fine in a similar arrangement before? What actually changed?
I am trying to understand as I have been following the post with curiosity of the outcome.
Did you have a short? or a loss of power? I am trying to figure out how a short occured with a rail joiner missing unless like Randy said the feeders were reversed.
Jerry
Looks like a loop to me. The far side of the offending turnout runs straight around the entire yard to the "north" switch. The main continues past the front of the station and rejoins the track that leads to the south ladder and back to the inside of the "south" switch.
Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it looks like to me in the video.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
. This image shows the area. As you can see the engine house leads doesnt connect back into the yard anywhere. Tracks in engine facility are all dead end tracks.
Blows MY theory ....
Well, there are no reverse loops in the track diagram, and Chad says that the turnout is an Insulfrog. So, he probably has crossed feeder wires.
Jerrys HO Chad, I am trying to understand as I have been following the post with curiosity of the outcome. Did you have a short? or a loss of power? I am trying to figure out how a short occured with a rail joiner missing unless like Randy said the feeders were reversed. Jerry
He said it was a short, not loss of power. He removed the rail joiner and the short went away.
The only reason that the short went away is because he removed the source of connectivity, but he didn't eliminate the short, just masked it.
Do those turnouts work like a Shinohara in that the two rails leaving the frog are both the same polarity depending on which way the points are thrown ? If they are, then you will get a short if the "north" and "south" turnouts are thrown against each other. Adding insulated joiners on the two rails on BOTH turnouts should cure the problem.
That's why I asked what I did, but the OP indicated that yard lead coming off that switch does not connect to the front side of the layout, which would indeed be a reverse loop. In the video it does sort of appear that way, but supposedly the innermost track just leads to a stub end engine house. In the picture gallery he posted there is a pencil sketch of the track plan, and it has no reversing sections, assuming that IS the actual track plan being built.
Mark R. Do those turnouts work like a Shinohara in that the two rails leaving the frog are both the same polarity depending on which way the points are thrown ?
Do those turnouts work like a Shinohara in that the two rails leaving the frog are both the same polarity depending on which way the points are thrown ?
No, not on the Insulfrog, the rails are jumpered on either side of the frog so those two inner rails are opposite polarity.
Yes, on the Electrofrog where the inside rails are the same polarity (unless gapped by the user), as the frog is live.
rrinker You must have a feeder backwards again. Unless this time you have created a reverse loop. Taking out a straight piece and plugging in an Insulfrog turnout with no other changes should never create a short.
Is there really any mystery here?
The track diagram shows no reverse loop. Chad says that the South turnout is a Peco Insulfrog. The only way to create a dead short in that situation is to flip the a pair of feeders.
Chad removes the turnout, the short disappears. Chad removes the rail joiner connecting the yard lead to the South turnout, the short disappears.
If the feeders aren't swapped, then a bare wire is touching the opposite rail. But, that can't be because then removing the turnout or the rail joiner wouldn't make the short disappear.
I don't know what else it could be except a flipped pair of feeders.
If someone is good with track planning software, Message me and I can walk you through drawing up my whole layout. Maybe that will help me also in the futrue with any more problems that might arise.
Chad, was it the feeders?
Your best bet to avoid future problems is to draw a two rail, color-coded track diagram. For example, draw one rail blue and one rail red. Whenever red and blue rails meet, you have a point of reverse polarity.
If you flipped a pair of feeders, the color coded track diagram isn't going to help. In that case, you just have to be more careful with your wiring.
Rich, that actually is a very good suggestion. I hate this wiring stuff. Can be soooo confusing as you have seen. I have a buddy stopping over tomorrow to see if we can fix the problem. I'll keep you posted.
Chad, two wiring questions for you.
Do you use two different colored wires for your bus?
Do you use two different colored wires for your feeders?
Rich, Yes, I use the 4 colored trailer wire (Green, Yellow, White and Brown) for my buss wires. I use just the Green and Yellow wires for the buss. Then I use Red and Blue colored wires for feeders. The way I hook them all up is Red to Yellow and Blue to Green. I double checked my wiring and all wires match correctly.
Just did a test that a gentleman suggested on youtube for me to do and it does appear that I have a reverse loop. I'm uploading the video for him now to see..the color on the hooper car does change color.