richhotrainYep, the DH165 series decoders all have the Lock feature. At least, it is worth a try.
This is worth a try for sure. I hadn't thought of that, so thanks Rich and Randy for the suggestion!
Rob Spangler
Rich
I have had more of the DH163 Decoders do the RESET than the 165s
But I believe every layout has a different Noise Ratio and therefore will cause different decoders and MFG of Decoders to have this RESETTING Problem!
Way back in the Keller Onboard Days (YES - that was my first jump into Command Control) we had Throttles (Kellers word for Decoders) that would just begin speeding up on their own - We could slow them back down - but soon they would begin doing the same thing again.
We only had 16 or so channesl back then
But the same unit on a different layout worked properly - but that layout a different Channel would run away!
We never figured it out and finally just vchanged over to DCC!
I know that I finally changed out the problem 163 Decoder and the problem went away in that engine
YET - the removed decoder works with NO Problems on a different layout
WHY? It ainn't the Decoder if it does that!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
cmrproducts Well - now others are reporting problems with other brands! It keeps leaning towards the Base System instead of a decoder problem! IF the noise on the Bus line is bad enough the decoder will think that it is a programming command and make a rewrite! I had problems with some really old decoders that would reset due to my Operators running turnouts and causing shorts. In the process with the Command Station retrying the reset time and again the decoder thought it was receiving a programming command and off it went! How to correct - have the Operators watch what they are doing! - Like that is going to happen! ;-) BOB H - Clarion, PA
Well - now others are reporting problems with other brands!
It keeps leaning towards the Base System instead of a decoder problem!
IF the noise on the Bus line is bad enough the decoder will think that it is a programming command and make a rewrite!
I had problems with some really old decoders that would reset due to my Operators running turnouts and causing shorts.
In the process with the Command Station retrying the reset time and again the decoder thought it was receiving a programming command and off it went!
How to correct - have the Operators watch what they are doing! - Like that is going to happen! ;-)
If this proves to be the problem, you have to wonder if the DH165 series is more susceptible than other series like the DH163 series, and why?
Alton Junction
rrinker If the decoders support it - lock them after programming them the way they should. I THINK Digitrax still supports the decoder lock feature in the 165's.
If the decoders support it - lock them after programming them the way they should.
I THINK Digitrax still supports the decoder lock feature in the 165's.
Yep, the DH165 series decoders all have the Lock feature. At least, it is worth a try.
If the decoders support it - lock them after programming them the way they should. Yes, that will probably mean you can't consist them using CV19 on the fly, but the locked decoder will not accept any programming commands other than to unlock it. This will block at least one vector for the memory loss. If they still get messed up, then they are getting it via noise in the signal, or power drops. If this stops them from getting reset, then somehow program commands are getting mixed in, though with NCE it would have to be POM commands since you can't run trains AND use the program track at the same time. I THINK Digitrax still supports the decoder lock feature in the 165's, it was their idea in the first place but not everyone got on board and it seems like very few people actually use it other than in dual decoder setups which are becoming (thankfully) rare.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
We are all guessing at this point, but I don't think that your LED lighting or household circuits are affecting anything. In the Chicago area, we are required to use metal conduit for our household wiring. My basement ceiling looks like a submarine with all of the conduit running above the layout for routing the various circuits throughout the house.
Like you, I have an NCE 5 amp wireless PH-Pro DCC system. I have had similar problems to yours, but my problem is with my Tsunami decoders. They have lost the consist address in CV19 on occasion, and they have dropped long addresses as weil. Fortunately, I only have four Tsunamis and they all came factory installed on Athearn Genesis F3A locos. I have discussed this issue on the NCE-DCC forum but without resolution.
My suspicion is that the wireless portion of my system may have something to do with it. I had started out with the standard NCE 5 amp PH-Pro DCC system and later converted to wireless by adding a base station and antenna and upgrading my two Pro cabs to wireless. Ever since, I have had occasional problems with dropped commands and balky CVs. I have never been able to confirm that wireless contributes to my problems.
cmrproductsHave you changed anything recently - added new equipment or removed some?
I have added more locos, none of them with sound. I think the total is four newly decodered locos. No more of them than ever run at a time.
I did add LED lighting to the staging yard and a lower deck branchline. It's not plugged in anywhere near the DCC command station or booster, but does run parallel to the track bus for most of its length. Last night's issue occurred while this lighting was off.
I worked some on finishing other parts of the basement, and have two new breakers worth of lighting and outlets hooked up. Wiring for these circuits runs through the train room ceiling.
Rob
Has this resetting of the decoders been getting worse right along?
Have you changed anything recently - added new equipment or removed some?
cmrproducts ...had to install Snubbers on my long Bus lines as I would have Engine Runaways only after prolonged Operating sessions! It sure is an easy thing to try - instead of having the kind of fustration you are experiencing!
Snubbers are on the bus already, Bob. Wish it was that easy. I twisted the bus wires too.
It sure sounds like a noise issue on the NCE Bus line!
I have dozens of DH165 serise decoders and never have a reset issue!
I had to install Snubbers on my long Bus lines as I would have Engine Runaways only after prolonged Operating sessions!
It sure is an easy thing to try - instead of having the kind of fustration you are experiencing!
wp8thsub richhotrain How often does this occur to a specific decoder? Daily? Weekly? Monthly? It varies. As more locos have been added to the layout (all with other brands of decoders), incidence has increased. I have had one or more such issues in four of the last five months, but last night affected over twice as many decoders as anything previous. The earlier record was three or four, last night was 10. Nothing consistent ties to when the problem occurs (short, particular throttle in use, specific engine, etc.).
richhotrain How often does this occur to a specific decoder? Daily? Weekly? Monthly?
It varies. As more locos have been added to the layout (all with other brands of decoders), incidence has increased. I have had one or more such issues in four of the last five months, but last night affected over twice as many decoders as anything previous. The earlier record was three or four, last night was 10. Nothing consistent ties to when the problem occurs (short, particular throttle in use, specific engine, etc.).
Given that recent frequency, ten times in one night, that at least gives you the advantage of being able to undertake some trial and error testing that might not be possible if the problem only manifested itself once or twice a month.
I assume that you have a large number of locos on your layout. What might be helpful would be to temporarily install some kill switches to deaden large parts of the layout so that you can place a test loco on the remaining section of live track to see if the problem occurs with only one loco live on the layout. I am wondering if there is some form of cross-talk going on among the locos equipped with DH165 series decoders.
wp8thsub richhotrain You mentioned that you contacted Digitrax, presumably by email. If so, I wouldn't wait for an email response. You ought to call Digitrax and ask to speak to a technician. I searched in vain for a contact phone number on the Digitrax site earlier. Now I just found it on the "about us" portion of their site (it's not listed under support or "contact us"). I have had good luck receiving e-mail responses from them in the past, but if I get nothing I will try to find somebody to call.
richhotrain You mentioned that you contacted Digitrax, presumably by email. If so, I wouldn't wait for an email response. You ought to call Digitrax and ask to speak to a technician.
I searched in vain for a contact phone number on the Digitrax site earlier. Now I just found it on the "about us" portion of their site (it's not listed under support or "contact us"). I have had good luck receiving e-mail responses from them in the past, but if I get nothing I will try to find somebody to call.
The telephone number, as you now know, is 850-872-9890. The reason that I suggest calling and asking for Technical Support is due to the nature of the problem. This is not a run of the mill issue with a single decoder. This is going to require someone at Digitrax to take the problem under consideration when you are dealing with 20 decoders with the same issue.
Do you have snubbers installed at the ends of your bus runs? Every time someone has wierd issues with NCE, this is always the recommendation.
richhotrainHow often does this occur to a specific decoder? Daily? Weekly? Monthly?
richhotrainYou mentioned that you contacted Digitrax, presumably by email. If so, I wouldn't wait for an email response. You ought to call Digitrax and ask to speak to a technician.
wp8thsub richhotrain How many of those 20 DH165 decoders exhibit that fault? So far I think all of them have been affected at least once.
richhotrain How many of those 20 DH165 decoders exhibit that fault?
So far I think all of them have been affected at least once.
How often does this occur to a specific decoder? Daily? Weekly? Monthly?
I would rule out the locos, such as Athearn BB's, because it is happening on a variety of different loco brands.
The NCE system doesn't seem to be the problem either.
It sure does seem like it is the DH165 series of decoders, but why?
The fact that it has happened at one time or another with each and every DH165 decoder seems to rule out a bad batch or bad production run.
You mentioned that you contacted Digitrax, presumably by email. If so, I wouldn't wait for an email response. You ought to call Digitrax and ask to speak to a technician. What could cause this? Have you heard of this problem before. Speculate, Mr. Technician. What could be going on here?
rrinker...I'd think if there was an epidemic of DH165 series decoders all losing their minds on a regular basis, it would be all over the Digitrax Yahoo group.
You'd think it would show up SOMEWHERE. The only thing I can think of is these decoders are "sensitive" to some combination of electronic noise factors, and my train room and house have them in just the wrong environment. I have ruled out common stuff like track or decoder wiring practices and specific types of mechanisms. If I had the slightest clue what could be doing this I'd turn it off, replace it, or otherwise correct it.
I use all TCS, but I'd think if there was an epidemic of DH165 series decoders all losing their minds on a regular basis, it would be all over the Digitrax Yahoo group.
Rob,
I have seen issuers with decoders getting messed up in 'BB' engines. I have a friend with a number of them with DH123 decoders and some of the issues are the same. The same decoders have no issues with his older Atlas engines.
I took one of the 'problem' engines(F45) and did a complete 're-wire' of the engine(he had used the old DHAT adapter kit). I 'polished' the frame area where the trucks swivel, as well as the metal plate on the trucks. I have also cleaned up the 'Jet' motor and hard wired everything to the JST connector. I 'reset' the decoder and reprogrammed it on my computer - We will see what happens.
I have seen the older DH120/121 decoders lose their address just sitting in the box, and I suspect static or a short causing the decoders to get messed up. Those decoders seem to be very sensitive to 'noisy' track(surplus phone wire wiring) I have lots of the DH163/164LO decoders in P2K GP's and have had no issues, Most of my current non-sound installs have been using the DN135 decoder - very small and rock solid. Everything else has been sound installs, I am converting 6 of those P2K GP9's to sound decoders when the new decoders arrive.
A lot of guys have been using TCS decoders at the club - The price is good 'in bulk' and they have been pretty reliable.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
richhotrainHow many of those 20 DH165 decoders exhibit that fault?
So far I think all of them have been affected at least once. I have now contacted Digitrax to see what they will say, if anything. I was hoping to hear if anyone else had experienced the same issues before dealing with the manufacturer so they don't just blow me off as having a problem I've caused for myself.
NCE did say that if Digitrax can determine if there's something within the NCE system that could be messing with the DH 165s they do want to know about it so they can work out a fix. On other layouts where I have operated (using Digitrax, CVP and NCE systems) I have seen Digitrax decoders losing programming here and there, but don't know specifics of what could be happening with them.
How many of those 20 DH165 decoders exhibit that fault?
FYI I just spoke to Larry at NCE and he has not heard of this issue, but confirmed that the command station, EPROM and throttles wouldn't be responsible.
richhotrainBut I do have the exact same operating system as you, and I do have a bunch of DH163 series decoders that perform just fine
I have a realtive few DH 163s. They are so far unaffected, as are three DH 123s.
...I am interested in what the problem is with your DH165 series decoders.
They randomly lose their long address, change from 28/128 speed step mode to 14 speed step mode in CV 29 (easy to spot when the lights work on even speed steps only when otherwise using 28 speed steps), have the direction bit changed in CV 29, and/or lose their advanced consist address (CV 19 resets to 0).
How many do you have ?
About 20.
What types of locos?
Remotored Athearn blue box of various types, Proto 2000 GP30s, Kato GP35s. Atlas GP40-2s. The older Blue box units have proper wiring and electrical isolation for DCC use, and were all formerly equipped with RailCommand decoders before I switched to DCC.
I cannot imagine that the problem is with your command station. Do you have the most recent EPROM update chip?
I have the EPROM that came with the radio Cab 06. It's not the current version, but I have no hardware in use that is dated after the initial EPROM upgrade. The command station battery is four years old, and I plan on replacing it today. I can't see the battery having an impact, as the information being lost in the decoders is decoder specific CV values. Other information stored in the command station, such as macros for accessory decoders and consisting for other decoder brands and types, is unaffected.
richhotrain Rob, I did some Internet searches and saw that you had problems with DH165 series decoders back in March, 2012. Are these the same decoders?
Rob, I did some Internet searches and saw that you had problems with DH165 series decoders back in March, 2012. Are these the same decoders?
The problem I had before was solved (or at least I think it was) and didn't resurface (a bizarre situation where a decoder address was re-setting to @383, which could be read on the programming track but not usable otherwise). That was eventually traced to faulty electrical pickup in the locomotive due to a broken wire. What that situation did was to alert me to the sensitivity of the DH165, and I haven't purchased any Digitrax decoders since. The affected decoder remains in use and was actually not affected by the random reset I observed yesterday - it still ran perfectly and remained in its consist.
No idea, the only Digitrax decoders I have are some older DH163L0 in Proto locos, which I repalced, but they had been in storage for 6 years and still ran properly on the addresses they were assigned. Can't say I've ever seen any decoder by any brand lose its mind like that, and as far as I know, no one at the club has had that issue on the club layout either.
Rob, I am not going to be of any help to you here because I don't have any DH165 series decoders.
But I do have the exact same operating system as you, and I do have a bunch of DH163 series decoders that perform just fine, so I am interested in what the problem is with your DH165 series decoders.