Hi all! First I'm posting this here as this seems the closest category. Second I DID do a search first (as a newbie) to see if this is already a stale topic-blame the search engine, bashers! Ok, that out of the way...Im investigating controlling several Kadee ramps without having to hold the buttons down for switching cars. I've seen several circuits in MR and online over the years-but then you inventoRy components and the price tag starts reaching the century mark-per control! Then I found a $6.00 HVAC component called a delay on break relay, adjustable from .6 to 600 seconds. Powered from 18 - 250V, it could be powered from the ramp transformer itself and calibrated to give a 6 - 10 second feed to the ramp then break the circuit, all for $6.00 a ramp! Has anyone seen/tried this? Or what am I missing that makes it look too easy and cheap? ICM is one example supplier.
Morgan:
I have none of these on my layout. I would think that if you do not want a press and hold on button that a single pole single throw switch would be the cheapest solution.
One wire from the power supply to the electro magnet, the other one to the toggle. Disadvantage is that you must remember to turn it off.
Dave
Well, you should look at how you are going to uncouple your cars first.
I have under the track magnets in some places, so this is how I do it: I back the couplers to be uncoupled over the magnet and then pull away a little bit and the couplers open and stay open. Then I reverse the direction and push the cars together again (the couplers don't close) and I push to spot the car where I want it , then pull away leaving it there.
Now, I can do all of that with my throttle in one hand. So theoretically, I could push and hold a momentary button or switch with the other hand. Or, if I had the relays you are talking about installed, once the couplers were in position, I could push the button and make the engine moves described if I needed two hands to control the throttle.
BUT, no matter which way I would do it, I would NEVER have a switch that was not a momentary type, because sooner or later you, or someone else, will forget to turn it off and chances are good that your electromagnet will burn up.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
You each make excellent points regarding one hand operation versus burning mag coils out, which is why I was intrigued by the $6.00 automated relay that can be adjusted to a time delay, and whether it had been tried. My understanding is they are used to keep HVAC systems from short-cycling. Set your shut-off delay hook it in, and it will cut coil power after x seconds.
Hi, Morgan
I bought a couple of Kadee electromagnet uncouplers but have not bothered to install them just yet.
I smell what you're cookin' with the time delay since they will overheat after a while and probably magnetize anything within a five foot radius. I had an AC air handler with a fan time delay switch. It was a bi-metal disc wired in series with the room thermostat. It allowed the evaporator to chill before the fan started and then kept the fan on for about 30 seconds after the t-stat was satisfied.
Very simple but not adjustable and you would still have the delay at the beginning... not good for the uncoupler magnet.
Then I came across this in a Google search and I think this guy would do the job.
http://www.pexsupply.com/ICM-Controls-ICM253-ICM253-Fan-Blower-Control-Off-Delay-on-Break-12-390-Second-Adjustable-Delay?gclid=CI659fi28rwCFcU-MgodP2sAtQ
I see prices all over from the $6 you mention to $76 and even $150!
Maybe take a chance and pick one up just to mess around with it.
As an other option. I found a wireless transmitter that I was going to use for a remote chicken coop door opener. If I'm not mistaken [edit: but I was mistaken] it had some delay settings incorporated in the board. I would have to look them up since it was a few years since I bought them but I recall they were around $35 apice. They were two channel so you could control two uncouplers from one little keychain sized remote... just the ticket for switching when you want to be mobile.
I'll update this when I find the link to the remote control relay...
Found it. First, here's a timer: http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/timers/canck002.htm
And here is the remote BUT I'm mistaken, the RF reciever has only latching or momentary options, no timer. I can visualize all sorts of fun uses for this wireless remotes like controlling building lights or powering animated devices (I plan on using one on my Walthers bascule bridge)
http://www.electronickits.com/remote_control/rf2.htm
This site has all sorts of neat electronics that MRR's could have fun with, take a look.
Ed
MORGAN S LONG:
For $6.00 why not just buy one and test it out. If it works you may have discovered a very interesting and cost effective method for controlling the uncouplers.
I for one would be interested in the results. I recently bought several of the electromagnetic uncouplers for peanuts on eBay. I can use all the help I can get, me being all thumbs and with a poor memory.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
A Google search using the term 'Time Delay Relay' turns up many choices, including some schematics that may allow you to build your own for a very reasonable cost.
Here's the DigiKey listing for time delay relays:
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/relays/time-delay-relays/1049305
If you are interested in experimenting with one of these, here is a link to a supplier:
http://www.gsistore.com/icm203f-10-min-adj-with-6-wire-delay-on-break-timer.html
Hey Dave (and everyone) you suggest I just jump in at $6.00 a station- and I will! I see Ontario on your sig, so you know the whole Red Green thing-and thats me! (no offense, I've archived his videos), I'll post if this is an easy answer. The build it yourself options will ALL start costing over $50.00 to acquire the components- digikey, Mouser, Sager, it doesn't matter. But pirating a purpose-built bulk device for a major industry could be a huge cost (and time) saver: it's a little cube, you power it, hook up the load control (supposedly an AC compressor?), dial in the desired delay til break and whala! Remember, it needs to be delay for break (instant on) not delay to make! The HVAC industry uses both for opposing purposes!!
One of my best friends used to work on the Red Green show. He said it was the best job he ever had. Used to come home with a sore gut from laughing all day.
Those of you who have not heard of the show should google it. Its just plain good fun!
http://www.redgreen.com/watch.html
Click on the 'WATCH' icon for a great example of his humour (Canadian spelling eh!).
Just don't try this at home!!
Let's just hope my experiment doesn't turn out like the "Cadillac backhoe", eh? (lol)
LION tried electro magnets, and discarded the idea.
Even the regualr track magnets have problems with newer locomotives since they are so smooth running.
LION made a momentary DPDT button that reversed the track polarity. I could then drag a line of cars over the magnet, tap the button, and it would uncouple, and the reverse movement is not detectable by the eye, but it sure does uncouple the cars.
Remember, LIONS run pasenger terminals, and him did not want to push the cars back what with passengers getting on and off. All he wanted to do was to stope the locomotive, uncouple, and pull away.
It worked, who am I to complain.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I would think that if you do not want a press and hold on button that a single pole single throw switch would be the cheapest solution.
It's the cheapest solution until you forget you've left it on, and you toast your uncoupler magnet.
Seriously, do NOT use a toggle switch.
I have a couple of the Kadee electromagnet uncouplers. They require a hefty power supply, like the one Kadee sells. You can find the same supply online for a lot less money, incidentally. I've also got quite a few between-the-rails magnets. But, before you invest heavily in any of these, I would suggest getting a package of bamboo skewers at the grocery store for a dollar. After all the work I put into getting magnets to work, I've decided I just like the skewers better.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
This just in! Forget exotic controls or expensive digital timing circuits. Take an 16 - 18 VDC supply to power the ramp. Use a 5A pc mount relay to switch it on off. A typical RadioShack relay would be 12V coil of 200 ohms. Wire in series a 100 resistor- this divides the 18V-->12 across coil, 6 across resistor. Wire in parallel with BOTH a pair of 4700 MFD capacitors (9400 MFD total). Use your choice of momentary switch to power. Close switch: relay closes (ramp on) and caps charge. Release switch: the residual charge in caps must bleed through coil-resistor circuit until the unlatch voltage (much lower than 12) is reached. Result is a simple circuit that will latch the ramp on for 8-10 seconds, then release. Just tried it so confirm it works. Wow! Why I didn't remember this I don't know. I hope Linn Wescott would be proud. I'm using a stout laptop power supply for all 4 ramps I have, building a timing circuit for each is only $10.00 apiece!
Nice job Morgan!
I've copied down your solution, way to go using your electronic knowledge. I love it when folks don't just run for the obvious commercial solution. An ideal example of the Genchi Genbutsu concept. As for Lynn Westcott, since he walked the walk and tried his solutions out on his layouts (L-girders, TAT-IV throttles, Zip texturing, Twin-T occupancy sensors and more) I do think he would approve. He would of course, immediately set out to improve on it. That's why we loved 'im.
I'm just tryin' to figure out a way to work in duct tape, a la Red Green.
Lou
Morgan,
I think I understand your description, however, could you give us a diagram? This could solve a problem for those of us who use both hands on their throttles.
Thanks
Happy to try, I'm new to loading images on this forum. I'll try to geno one on here. As to Mr Wescott, I still have my old TAT IV throttle, big plywood case, hand turned throttle and brake and direction levers! Yes, it still works!
If you buy one of the $6 relays, just hook it up to a light bulb instead of the uncoupler; that way if it doesn't work you won't take a chance on frying a magnet and the bulb will just keep on lighting like a bad idea.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
A little goofy , free handed and sideways but here's my circuit. Component tolerances can vary but I'm getting 7-8 second hold down of the relay and thus the uncoupler.
Sorry, somehow the MR server doesn't like pictures pasted in, draws funny boxes instead, anyone who knows a workaround or anyone who wantsthe sketch emailed let me know. Just finished building the third one, they all work great! Regarding the current demands of Kadee ramps, 3 amps has been widely quoted- I just bought a surplus laptop charger rated 18V at 6A. Seems to work for me!
A test at one of my yards shows success! One button push gives you 6seconds minimum: approach the ramp, hit the button-you have time to move in slack and back away or spot the car in delayed position. Of course if you prefer stay on the button, unit will just stay on.