I hate to admit this, LOL, but I agree with LION. The way he gapped the reversing section is the way that I advised the OP. But, maxman's approach would work just as well.
Rich
Alton Junction
I did not do that... because the inner track appears to be the main line with most of the traffic on it and all of the switching on it. Of course I do not see what the rest of the layout looks like so I can not discern his operating agenda, but the middle track is the problem, if it were gone there would be no reversing loop.
A train using a "cut-off" (If that is what it is) would have to hold at either end of the cut off for the tower to allow it back onto the mane lion.
LIONS always have reasons. There may be reasons for otherwise, but those are mine for this.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
BroadwayLionThere is a reversing loop.
I believe that that was determined 4 posts ago.
And I don't think I would have put the gaps where you show them. I would have put them on the other track to the right of A, and after the crossover where you show the gap on the right side.
There is a reversing loop. Install gaps as shown at both ends of the middle track.
Let switch A control the power to the middle track.
Let the normal positon of switch A be against the middle track
Let the reverse position of switch A be aligned for the middle track.
When Switch A is reversed power crosses to the middle track from the tracks outside of switch A
When Switch A in in the normal position, power comes to the middle track from the other end.
Trains must stop on the middle track before proceeding, and Switch A must be moved before the train can continue.
If a train arrives across switch A, it must be returned to normal before it can proceed out of fthe middle tracks.
If a train arrives across switch B, then switch A must be reversed before it can continue.
LION makes it sound complicated, but it is simple railroad interlocking protocol, and indeed levers should also be required for the signals as well as for the switch points, but that, in HO is not necessary, although I do it that way anyway.
rrinker There's a reverse loop there if you come down the right side track at the left and follow it around, you can come back out the middle track going the opposite way. That's why there's a short. --Randy
There's a reverse loop there if you come down the right side track at the left and follow it around, you can come back out the middle track going the opposite way. That's why there's a short.
--Randy
BINGO !
You gotta love track diagrams. A picture speaks a thousand words.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Here is the OP's track plan. He emailed it to me to post for him.
This track plan is an addition to his existing layout and begins on the upper left side of the diagram with those two tracks runnning down the left side of the addition.
RICHHOTRAIN is helping me out with this problem. With his systematic approach I discovered miswirng to the BUS. He identified a revers loop and is educating this oldtimer. This is a layout I designed myself without any knowledge of electricity.
You have checked each and every feeder to be sure that they are connected correctly.
You have physically run your finger along the right rail, and never once found yourself on the left rail indicating an unsuspected reversing loop or wye.
You did NOT use a latex caulk to hold tracks in place, since this will conduct electricy when wet, and will never dry under the tracks where never exposed to air.
Your ballast and the glue used therein is not causing a short.
Had something similar happen. Everything was fine and then I went to show off the layout and it was dead. Tuned out I had a siding that normally holds 5 cars and I squeezed in a 6th, whose metal wheel was right over a gap that had to be there, removed car, layout was fine.
zstripe Kay.Div, Put one of these up, next to the break: Frank
Kay.Div,
Put one of these up, next to the break:
Frank
Another good one...............
Jim
Here is another one for you friends, the other day a friend and I were at our train club and had changed out some switches on our auto reversing section ( it is quite complex with a number of switches) Then when we ran a loco on it it went for a while and stopped. The whole system shut down, indicating a short. It took us over an hour to figure it out, Finally realised that we had another loco stopped right over an insulated break in the rails, the tire was able to bridge the gap and cause the short. Solution: - put some kind of signs on the side of of the track to indicate where the insulated breaks are so we don't stop trains right on the breaks.
Kay.Div.
Moses45 Richhotrain If I knew what your address was I would send them to you. I thought your address might be in your profile, but no luck there.
Richhotrain
If I knew what your address was I would send them to you. I thought your address might be in your profile, but no luck there.
I will send you a PM
I mentioned continuity because you did ask about putting the probes across the junction of two rails. Not part of your problem. That was only, just in case. As you gain more electrical knowledge, it will become clearer to you.
Don't forget, Google should be your best friend. Today, hardly anything is Ungooleable. The downside is, Google is a privacy thief.
Try Google for, electrical short and electrical continuity as a couple examples.
If you ever get curious about DCC, there are thousands of links for all kinds of areas of DCC.
You can build quite a selection of subjects in your Favorites for all kinds of subjects, including model railroading. Sure makes model railroading much easier to understand and you have many documents at your finger tips.
Below are a couple links about using meters in model railroading. I have four of those meters for working on cars also, besides electrical wiring in the house. Been using them for some years.
Again, there are many links about using meters and many You Tube videos about using them.
You can even find You Tube videos on troubleshooting. Downside is, some videos are not done very well.
Rivet counters will no doubt tell you the meters are not good enough. I hear that at times.
http://www.trainelectronics.com/Meter_Workshop/index.htm
http://www.trainelectronics.com/Meter_HF/index.htm
Good luck on your venture.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Moses45 I am an old fart, who is going to college. If you are in your 60's then no further explanantion is needed. LMAO
I am an old fart, who is going to college. If you are in your 60's then no further explanantion is needed. LMAO
LOL
Well, that explains it quite well. Hang in there. It all turns around when you hit 70.
If you want to email me the pics, I will post them for you.
For clarity, be sure to differentiate between RAILS and TRACK. Track is two rails with ties upder it. Rails are the individual pieces of metal. You will also find rather than A and B, people refer to North and South rails. For example pick a spot an dhte rail closest to the aisle is the South Rail and the rail closest to the wall is the North rail. That way any place you go you can keep the same orientation of N and S rails. Many people use different color feeders and use the color to identify the rail. Two handy memory devices are to use black (black in back) or red (red to rear) wire for the rail closest to the wall.
First step is to visually check all the feeders to make sure that you haven't crossed a feeder to the wrong bus.
You will be testing the resistance (continuity) between the N rail and S rail and than also, when you install gaps you will be testing on the same rail across the gap.
Assuming the feeders are OK, you will probably have to start cutting gaps. Normally I would suggest that you isolate the new track from the rest of the layout (both the rails and the bus wires) and then use one of three approaches to find the short:
- Start from the "beginning" and work toward the end, isolating sections of track.
- Start at the "end" and work back toward the old portion of the layout isolating sections of track.
- Go to near the middle of the section and cut gaps there, then go to the middle of the section with the short and cut gaps there, then go to the middle of the section with the short...etc.
However in your case since you did everything at once the same way, I fear that you probably have multiple locations with the same short. In this case I would take one switch or siding and isolate it from the rest of the layout and the the bus. Then test that one portion to find where you have the short and where the gaps need to be. Then go to the rest of the layout and find every place that same situation exists and do the same fix.
Rather than do the entire track plan (unless you have reversing loops), why don't you show us how you wired a switch and a crossover. Something there is most likely the problem.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I will try to post an ANYRAIL 5 pic and some photos in the next few days. I dont know how well a 13x25 layout will show up. Also , I have taken some photos. But, I have to get Photobucket to post them Be patient, I am an old fart, who is going to college. If you are in your 60's then no further explanantion is needed. LMAO
Moses45 OK. Help me understand. On one section of track there are 2 rails. Let us call them track A and track B. If I join 2 sections together, do I then touch one probe on track A of one section and jump over the joiner and touch the other probe on track A of the next section.? Or do I check A and B within one section? This may be elementary to you, but it is new to me.
OK. Help me understand. On one section of track there are 2 rails. Let us call them track A and track B. If I join 2 sections together, do I then touch one probe on track A of one section and jump over the joiner and touch the other probe on track A of the next section.? Or do I check A and B within one section? This may be elementary to you, but it is new to me.
If you have a short on your layout, continuity is not your problem, it is reverse polarity.
Either you crossed feeder wires from the bus to the rails or, as Frank suggested, you created a reverse loop or reversing section with your track work.
Show us your track plan.
Wayne,
What can I say?
BTW: You must now come over and remove all the coffee from my keyboard.
Wow, we are still on the first page of this thread and my head is spinning.
W could definitely use a track plan to see what all is involved here, but if I had one guess, it would be that a pair of feeder wires got crossed.
If all of the track is soldered, then continuity would always be there, so an ohm meter will prove nothing.
Any chance that a Peco Electrofrog got thrown into the mix?
My advice would be to disconnect one set of feeders at a time until the short disappears. Or, better yet, disconnect all of the feeders and then reconnect one pair of feeders at a time, testing along the way for shorts.
Moses45On one section of track there are 2 rails. Let us call them track A and track B. If I join 2 sections together, do I then touch one probe on track A of one section and jump over the joiner and touch the other probe on track A of the next section.? Or do I check A and B within one section? This may be elementary to you, but it is new to me.
Everyone else here keeps talking about continuity and ohms. I have never had any luck using an ohm meter to troubleshoot anything with DCC. This is because if you have feeders connected to the track anyplace, you will read back through the rails, feeders, comand station, and anything else in the line.
I set the meter to the AC voltage scale, the smallest scale available that will read up to 20 volts. If you read from rail A to rail B you should see a voltage. If you don't, you either have a bad connection, or you have a short. If you do read a voltage, then the next step is to read from one rail A to the next rail A. This assumes that the two rail A's are separated by an insulator. This should read zero volts. If you read zero, that means that the two rail A feeders are in phase. If you read a voltage, then that means that the two rail A feeders are out of phase (you have a wire swapped). This could cause a short.
If you do plan to use the meter set to ohms, make sure that you have the power off.
I'm certainly no wiring expert, but when I saw the title of your thread, my first thought was that your problem might have been even more serious if you had instead had tracks in your shorts.
Wayne
zstripe You have already recieved a lot of helpful advice so I won't go there, but it sounds to me like you have a cross wired feeder. The switchs you are using should not be a problem. A wiring diagram would be extremely helpful, especially since you added an extension to an exising plan. By chance did you create a reverse loop, for instance? Frank
You have already recieved a lot of helpful advice so I won't go there, but it sounds to me like you have a cross wired feeder. The switchs you are using should not be a problem.
A wiring diagram would be extremely helpful, especially since you added an extension to an exising plan. By chance did you create a reverse loop, for instance?
Or maybe a crossover.
davidmurray You are trying to see if the two rails are electrically continous. Check one probe on rail A and one probe on Rail B, first on one section of track, and then leap frog down the line. If two feeder wires are crossed, you will get zero resistance first try. Dave
You are trying to see if the two rails are electrically continous. Check one probe on rail A and one probe on Rail B, first on one section of track, and then leap frog down the line.
If two feeder wires are crossed, you will get zero resistance first try.
Dave
Connect one probe to rail A and one probe to rail B to test for shorts.
One probe to rail A, and one probe to other rail A is testing for continuity which should be zero ohms, not a short in this case.
Don't confuse a short with continuity,
The beauty of the link I posted is you do not have to look at the meter. Just keep working along and if you here the buzz, stop.