I'm sure there are hundreds of topics on this but can't seem to find them. So here I go..I'm just now trying to wire up my DCC layout. I'm using Peco Insluforog switches.
As I attached feeder wires to the end of my dead end track I ran a test. When coming off the main line into track I have power, but when I line switch back to main I loose power. How do I keep that track live at all times? I relalize these are power routing switches but how can I keep them live at all times?
Chad
HO Scale modeler of Union Pacific and Iowa Chicago and Eastern Railroads.
If I understand what you did, you connected the power to the end of the spur. Power connections should be at the point end of the turnout, not at the frog end.
So I need to add feeders to the the end by the throw bar correct?
Whoa! If your feeders attach to the end of the spur, you should always have power on the spur. The condition you describe reads as though the feeders attach to the points end of the power-routing turnout that would route power to the spur when lined for the spur and the main when lined for the main. Did you correctly describe what you have?
Dante
P.S. Or when you say you lose power, are you losing power on the main or the spur? And where do you feed the main?
Im uploading a video showing what my issue is on youtube. As soon as it's there I'll post the link.
ChadMichaels So I need to add feeders to the the end by the throw bar correct?
Here is the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzqrKkh3AOM
Quote:
Made your link clickable:
Frank
Chad, the feeder wires that you soldered to the ends of that spur track must not be connected to the main bus wires. That is the only way that the condition shown on the video could occur.
If the feeders were wired to the main bus wires, there would be continous power to the spur because you wired the spur. But, on the video, once the loco is on the spur, when you throw the point back to the main, the power routing feature of the Insulfrog cuts power to the spur.
Incidentally, at 1:19 of the video, you say that you threw the switch back to the main but the loco is still moving on the spur. That would seem to contradict my assumption that the feeder wires on the spur are not connected to the main bus wires. However, a few seconds later on the video, we see you throwing the points to the main and then power is lost to the spur track, consistent with my assumption. So, my question to you is what did you do at 1:19 of the video. If you threw the switch back to the main, why were the point rails still thrown divergent when your camera moved to show the switch?
Rich
Alton Junction
When I want to keep the diverging route alive on a Peco Insulfrog switch, I add short jumpers undernieth the switch before I install it. I cut the plastic strip between the ties on the underside of the switch and solder solid wire between the stock rail and the lead rail just behind the points. I do it on both stockrails. This keeps both routes through the switch alive at all times. And if I want to isolate the track later I can just cut a gap and glue in some Styrene to keep the gap from closing.
Peco are power routing switces. This is useful in DC systems where you want to have an engine sit off on the spur and not respond to throttle commands.
To Fix:
For every track past the frog, you need to have feeder wires on the + and - leg. You also need to gap the inside rails, just past the frog. I know because I did the conversion for our club to DCC and had to work with PECOs.There is an advantage to this. If you approach the turnout backwards and against the points (switch thrown the wrong way) the loco will cut out before it derails. (But you'll also get a short) Make sure you have a breaker set to 3 amps or less.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
retsignalmtr When I want to keep the diverging route alive on a Peco Insulfrog switch, I add short jumpers undernieth the switch before I install it. I cut the plastic strip between the ties on the underside of the switch and solder solid wire between the stock rail and the lead rail just behind the points. I do it on both stockrails. This keeps both routes through the switch alive at all times. And if I want to isolate the track later I can just cut a gap and glue in some Styrene to keep the gap from closing.
This is going to be interesting to see how this issue is resolved by the OP.
He has wired the far end of that spur track, so if it is wired properly to the bus wires, it should be live at all times regardless of which way the point rails are thrown. So, adding short jumpers to the underside of the Insulfrog is redundant.
I don't get David's or Don's reply.
If you look at Chad's video, he has feeder wires on both rails at the far end of the spur track. If these feeders are properly wired to the main bus wires, that entire strip of spur track should be live right up to where the spur track connects to the divergent end of the Insulfrog turnout.
DigitalGriffinYou also need to gap the inside rails, just past the frog.
I don't believe that this is necessary for Insulfrogs.
My take on this, is poor soldering of the wires on the far end of that spur track. I would redo this wiring.
Jack W.
maxman DigitalGriffin You also need to gap the inside rails, just past the frog. I don't believe that this is necessary for Insulfrogs.
DigitalGriffin You also need to gap the inside rails, just past the frog.
Agreed, no gaps required on the Insulfrog. On the other hand, gaps are required on the Electrofrog, on the inside mainline rail and on the inside diverging rail.
But no matter which type of Peco turnout, the OP has the feeder wires placed on the far end of the spur track, so the entire spur track should be powered right up to the turnout. Should be!
1. If he has 'fed' the spur track ANYWHERE from the servicing turnout granting access to it to the spur's end, the entire spur is always live.
2. If his servicing turnout is a power-routing turnout, the entire turnout will be powered...all rails, because it is also power routing and fed at the throwbar end. IOW, because he has joined all rails leading to the servicing turnout, and because he has fed all rails leading to the turnout, whether spur or main, and because the turnout routes power BOTH ways, his rails on the spur should always be live, and so should all rails on the turnout. IF his wipers under the turnout are making the right contact at the right times, even his closure rails will be live all the time because he's feeding them via the power-routing feature, only backwards from the hot spur.
selectorand because he has fed all rails leading to the turnout, whether spur or main,
I think we are assuming this. I did not see any feeders at the point end. Also, when he backs the loco down the main and crosses the turnout he says he still has power when he throws the turnout. If that is true, why does the sound momentarily cut out when the turnout is thrown to the siding?
I'm also wondering if he has one set of feeders connected to the incorrect bus and is really seeing a short.
maxman selector and because he has fed all rails leading to the turnout, whether spur or main, I think we are assuming this. I did not see any feeders at the point end. Also, when he backs the loco down the main and crosses the turnout he says he still has power when he throws the turnout. If that is true, why does the sound momentarily cut out when the turnout is thrown to the siding? I'm also wondering if he has one set of feeders connected to the incorrect bus and is really seeing a short.
selector and because he has fed all rails leading to the turnout, whether spur or main,
maxman, you raise an excellent point. When he first throws the point rails to divergent and announces that he still has power, the prime mover goes silent for a moment.
I noticed that both times that I viewed the video but never mentioned it, so, advantage maxman.
Let's look at this from another perspective.
The mainline is obviously powered already, but let's assume that the turnout has feeders at both ends of the straight through route, but not at the divergent end of the turnout or any point beyond the turnout on the spur track.
In that case, as long as the point rails are thrown to the straight through route (mainline), the spur is dead. Now, throw the point rails to the divergent route, and the spur track is live (and so is the mainline). Throw the point rails back to the straight through route (mainline), and the spur track is dead once again. That is the effect of a power routing Insulfrog.
Lastly, add feeders anywhere on the spur track, from the divergent end of the turnout to the stub end of the spur track, and the spur track is now live at all times, no matter which way the point rails are thrown.
richhotrainThe mainline is obviously powered already,
I don't think that it is so obvious. I see a set of feeders on the mainline after the turnout. So when the turnout is thrown for the main the track before the points is powered from those set of feeders back through the frog. That's why the loco runs from the mian through the turnout.
In like manner, there is a set of feeders on the siding, so when the turnout is thrown that way the loco also runs through. But when the loco is sitting on the main before the points the sound cuts out as he throws the points, which indicates to me that contact is being momentarily broken.
I believe that the turnout itself is ot the issue. I think either there is no power being fed before the points, or one set of feeders is out of phase with the other.
The reason that I said that the mainline is obviously powered is that the loco runs before the switch, through the switch, and after the switch. So, the mainline is obviously powered. It is the siding that is not continuously powered, only when the point rails are thrown divergent is there power on the siding. Are the feeders at the end of the siding connected to the main bus wires? That seems to be the problem.
That stall on the mainline after the turnout is momentary, not a dead short. Once the point rails are thrown divergent, the sound returns. He should add a set of feeders to that end of the turnout. As he moves the point rails from straight through to divergent, there is a momentary loss of power until the point rails make contact with the stock rails once again. I don't believe that there are any feeders on any of the three ends of the turnout. Power routing or not, that is a no-no with any turnout.
I agree that the problem is probably with one or both of the spur feeders (bad connection, broken wire, connection to other than main bus,etc.?). There might be-barely visible-feeders on the main past the points end of the turnout. It is possible that the temporary cutout of sound and power after he backed on the main past the turnout is because he shut down the throttle temporarily while changing direction simultaneously with moving the points. I don't know. In any event, I cannot figure why he doesn't always have power to the spur if the spur feeders are operational. (I don't believe he has to feed the points end of the turnout itself as long as there is a current-bearing connectiion between the turnout and the powered main and the main is fed somewhere before the points end of the turnout.)
I agree with you Dante. My only reason for suggesting feeders at the tail end of the turnout was to potentially eliminate that momentary power cutoff.
I am still puzzled by what Chad did at 1:19 of that video. I also wish that we knew exactly where he has feeders in the vicinity of that turnout.
And, for goodness sake, clean the track rails and the wheels on the loco.
And, check the connection of those feeder wires at the end of the siding. Check the feeder connections on the rails and on the bus wires.
Lastly, re-shoot the video. At the moment, there is too much left to doubt.
How many sections of track are between the switch and the piece you have the feeders joined to? Have you tried your demo with the Loco way down on the section of track that the feeders are attached to? Are your joiners along the spur all soldered? Do you have an Ohm meter?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
ChadMichaelsThere is only one set of feeders so far I have put in on the main since im just starting to wire the whole layout.
So, to clarify, is there or is there not a set of feeder wires to the mainline track before the points (that track being to the right of the turnout as shown on your video)?
Geez, Chad, you are using the LIFO method to answer questions - - Last In, First Out. LOL
Have you checked those feeders at the end of the siding??? Are they wired to the rails and connected to the bus wires?
And, add a set of feeders to the tail of the turnout.
Someone once said "every piece of track should be soldered to something, if not the next piece of track then a feeder and the feeder should be soldered to the bus". I have followed this advise on my current layout and have never had one electrical problem on it.