One of my turnouts is not transfering power to the rail causing the block to be dead when switched off mainline.
The point is not contacting the rail hard enough when the switch turns off ther mainline. Straight is fine.
Di need to change out the switch? :(
Gary
It depends on your personal tolerance of things not working perfectly. If the trains are still working well through the points rails on that turnout, but you know you're not getting power-routing because of poor rail to rail contact, you have a number of options if you'd rather NOT exchange the turnout for a new one. You can try to improve contact, including by cleaning the inside of the point rail and the flange face of the stock rail against which it sits, or you can solder some jumper wire, a thin 24 gauge wire, say, between the stock rail and the closure rail. Or, you can gap the rails after the frog that lead to the siding/spur, and feed them with 22 gauge feeders from a bus that you probably run below the layout. You'll have to run a switch in series in those feeders so that you can de-power the spur/siding.
Who is the maker of your misbehaving turnout? Is it powered? If so, by what? If not, by what mechanism, if any, do you throw the points?
Most problems like this can be rectified short of replacing the turnout but the fix might be dirrerent for different turnout construction or method of throwing the points.
gdelmoroThe point is not contacting the rail hard enough when the switch turns off ther mainline.
Read this.
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_bonds.htm
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Why not clean the points and rail where they make contact? A piece of fine emory cloth will work just fine.
If it worked fine before, then dirty point and rail contact is most likely the cause. Try the easy fix first.
I have had to this on many point contacts over the years. Only replaced switches that actually broke.
Ken G Price
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
In addition to the above recommendations, you can add an overspring to maintain pressure on the point-to-rail contact or add a control that does so, such as a switch machine or Caboose ground throw with a spring built-in.
Dante
Gdelmoro,
Honestly, You need to supply more info as to what type of system you are using,DC or DCC, what kind of turnouts you are using and are they hand thrown, elect. switch machine or none. It will be easier for people trying to help you, if you supply some keys.
Frank
zstripe Gdelmoro, Honestly, You need to supply more info as to what type of system you are using,DC or DCC, what kind of turnouts you are using and are they hand thrown, elect. switch machine or none. It will be easier for people trying to help you, if you supply some keys. Frank
Yep, we need more info.
Rich
Alton Junction
Atlas Turnout is connected to the mainline block wired to a DPDT toggle powered by either cab A or B. If I push the point against the rail it has power.
THANKS for ALL the Excellent posts!!
Is this turnout driven by a Tortoise, Atlas powered switch machine, Atlas manual switch machine, Bluepoint, Caboose groundthrow, mechanical linkage or what? Also, what kind of Atlas - Customline or Snap-switch? What kind of roadbed is it sitting on, if any? Is the turnout ballasted?
If you are using an Atlas twin-coil machine, do you have a Capacitive Discharge circuit to drive it? How far is the turnout from it's power supply.
Every answer will point us down a different track.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
This is all kind of pointless with the OP feeding us little or no information.
I hate threads like this one.
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gdelmoro,
Do you have anything holding it against the stock rail? Manual ground throw? Elect switch machine? Sounds like you don't have anything holding it against the rail.
Atlas turnouts are not power routing. So, there is no need for the point rail to touch the stock rail in order to provide power to the point rail. The point rails are already powered assuming that power is provided to the stock rails in some manner.
Something is wrong with the OP's Atlas turnout.
It is probably losing power at the point itself, where they are hinged, once he gets past the hinge point, his power will resume. That is one of the flaws, of an Atlas turnout. The hinge part on lt slides on the hinge at that point, over time it will lose pickup. The best cure is to solder a jumper, from the points, to the hinge rail. I have fixed and repaired many Atlas turnouts, that way. Now they don't go on the layout unless I do that at the work bench. If you ever had occasion to be on the Atlas web site, they will tell you the same thing. For some reason, the #4's are notorious for sloppy hinge points. They have not fixed it in years, but know about it. Something to do with the production line. One way to also fix it, depending on your skills, is to have a slight twist in the points, not perpindicular to the stock rail. This has been discussed before, on the Forums. Atlas had chimed in and left a link for help and cure of the problem. I will have to go through my files to find it and will post when I do. Lot of things on my plate today.
zstripe It is probably losing power at the point itself, where they are hinged, once he gets past the hinge point, his power will resume. That is one of the flaws, of an Atlas turnout. The hinge part on lt slides on the hinge at that point, over time it will lose pickup. The best cure is to solder a jumper, from the points, to the hinge rail. I have fixed and repaired many Atlas turnouts, that way.
It is probably losing power at the point itself, where they are hinged, once he gets past the hinge point, his power will resume. That is one of the flaws, of an Atlas turnout. The hinge part on lt slides on the hinge at that point, over time it will lose pickup. The best cure is to solder a jumper, from the points, to the hinge rail. I have fixed and repaired many Atlas turnouts, that way.
Frank, I agree. I went down and looked at some of my Atlas turnouts, and the hinge plate is definitely a suspect. Time to bring out the volt meter. Or, what I often do is use a 12 volt bulb with two wires (+/-) attached, and touch the bare ends of the wires to various points on the turnout. If the bulb lights, there is power. If the bulb does not light, the rail is unpowered.
If it is a stock Atlas turnout, turn it over and solder wires from the outside rails to the inside rails, keeping the polarity aligned of course.
Atlas turnouts have little brass wires that make contact with tension, which sometimes gets weakened due to a variety of things, like water/glue from ballasting, twisting at installation, or bouncing from uneven roadbed/subroadbed.
- Douglas
There is power. Sounds like I need to remove the turnout and wire it.
gdelmoro There is power. Sounds like I need to remove the turnout and wire it.
Where is there power? Apparently on the stock rails, but what about the point rails?
I thought the problem was that the point rails didn't have power unless you firmly pressed them against the stock rails.
Doughless If it is a stock Atlas turnout, turn it over and solder wires from the outside rails to the inside rails, keeping the polarity aligned of course. Atlas turnouts have little brass wires that make contact with tension, which sometimes gets weakened due to a variety of things, like water/glue from ballasting, twisting at installation, or bouncing from uneven roadbed/subroadbed.
I am confused by this. Perhaps different Atlas turnouts have different configurations for power pickups.
On my Atlas Custom Line #4 and #6 turnouts, which I purchased between 2004 and 2012, there are no "little brass wires". What I see is a thin copper hinge plate spanning between the stock rail and the point rail. The point rail has two tabs that fit through small holes in the hinge plate and bend to hold the point rail in place.
richhotrain Doughless If it is a stock Atlas turnout, turn it over and solder wires from the outside rails to the inside rails, keeping the polarity aligned of course. Atlas turnouts have little brass wires that make contact with tension, which sometimes gets weakened due to a variety of things, like water/glue from ballasting, twisting at installation, or bouncing from uneven roadbed/subroadbed. I am confused by this. Perhaps different Atlas turnouts have different configurations for power pickups. On my Atlas Custom Line #4 and #6 turnouts, which I purchased between 2004 and 2012, there are no "little brass wires". What I see is a thin copper hinge plate spanning between the stock rail and the point rail. The point rail has two tabs that fit through small holes in the hinge plate and bend to hold the point rail in place. Rich
Tabs are a better description than wires. I had wires on the brain.
I always thought the sometime problem with Atlas turnouts is with the lack of power to the closure rails, (the rails in between the points and the frog) not the points. I thought the power to the points was transferred from the rivets in the tab that comes from the closure rails, and power to the closure rails comes from the tabs connected to the stock rails. I hand throw my turnouts with nothing holding the points in place.
As an experiment, I took my DCC/Sound p2k sw8 (notorious for finicky pickup issues) and placed it on the turnout, left side on the stock rail, right side on the point and closure rails. I placed the point rails in between the stock rails, not thrown in either direction and making no contact with any stock rail. In theory, since the point rails are not touching the stock rails, the loco should not have power to the right side. No problem. The loco started and moved just fine.
However, if there was no power to the closure rail, I think then I would have a problem.
I think the solution is to solder wires from the stock rails to the closure rails to ensure power to the closure rails. With anything other than a critter loco or an 0-4-0, the wheelbase of a loco should always be long enough for a truck to touch a closure rail.
Perhaps with short wheelbase steam locomotives, the point rails need to be powered since one side of the loco is only on the points, and the rivets need to carry the power from the closure rail. So carefully centerpunching the rivets might tighten them up, as well as cleaning out any glue or paint, etc. as well trying to make good contact with the stock rail via ground throw or switch machine, to get power from the stock rail.
You shouldn't need to remove the turnout if it's not a totally easy situation to do that. Jumpers can be routed through holes in the roadbed and soldered in unobtrusive locations. I've had to do this with a few Atlas turnouts, and never had to remove them from the layout.
Rob Spangler
Doughless I thought the power to the points was transferred from the rivets in the tab that comes from the closure rails, and power to the closure rails comes from the tabs connected to the stock rails. In theory, since the point rails are not touching the stock rails, the loco should not have power to the right side. No problem. The loco started and moved just fine. I think the solution is to solder wires from the stock rails to the closure rails to ensure power to the closure rails.
I thought the power to the points was transferred from the rivets in the tab that comes from the closure rails, and power to the closure rails comes from the tabs connected to the stock rails.
In theory, since the point rails are not touching the stock rails, the loco should not have power to the right side. No problem. The loco started and moved just fine.
I think the solution is to solder wires from the stock rails to the closure rails to ensure power to the closure rails.
This is not quite accurate. Atlas turnouts are not power routing, so the point rails do not need to touch the stock rails to receive power. Every rail segment on an Atlas turnout should be powered once power is supplied to the stock rails. The only unpowered segments of an Atlas turnout are the guard rails and the frog.
The Internet has tons of photos and drawings of turnouts, so what the world doesn't need is another drawing of a turnout. But, I couldn't resist since I could not find a good drawing of an Atlas turnout. So I drew my own.
There are 8 rail segments on an Atlas turnout. Once power is supplied to the two stock rails, the hinge plates transfer power to the closure rails and the point rails. The two frog rails are also powered either as an extension of the closure rails or via a jumper on the underside of the turnout.
As an experiment, I connected two wires from a DC power pack to the tail end of an Atlas turnout and used a 12 volt bulb to test all 8 rail segments. There was power on all 8 segments and the point rails were not making any contact with the stock rails. The metal hinge plates do all of the work.
Perhaps too much paint was slopped on around the connector plate/pivot. Although I painted mine when painting the rails and didn;t have a problem - however all of my turnots do have feeders connected at all three legs.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker all of my turnouts do have feeders connected at all three legs. --Randy
all of my turnouts do have feeders connected at all three legs.
Same here, that is a good practice to follow.
Regardless of the wiring and power to the point rails, there remains the mechanical problem of why the point rails aren't pressed tightly against the stock rails. If this problem persists, eventually you'll find that wheels will "pick" the points and derail.
The most common problem is too much friction between the throwbar and the roadbed. This usually results from gluing the turnout down too tightly, or getting glue beneath the throwbar either when gluing down the turnout or when ballasting. I have a few old dental tools that my dentist gave me after they were no longer serviceable for tooth work. I find these to be ideal to reach in under the throwbar to remove glue or ballast. If there is still a lot of friction, I apply some Labelle grease beneath the throwbar with a toothpick.
Another issue, particularly with Atlas twin-coil machines, is insufficient power to the machine. They should push the points all the way over with a sharp, distinct snap. If they don't, add a capacitive discharge circuit to drive them, and to incidentally protect the machines in case your control panel toggle sticks in the closed position. You may find that they work fine on the bench with short wires, but when you put them on the layout far from the power supply, the long wires eat a lot of power. Again, the CD circuit will help a lot here.
On one of my Atlas Code 83 snap-switches, I had a problem with the end of the point rail where it is connected to the throwbar. This connection was loose, and the point rail was slipping out. As a result, the points were not all the way against the stock rail. I was able to just bend the clip a bit to keep the rails in their plastic mount. You can't use glue, by the way. It needs to pivot a bit.
richhotrain Doughless I thought the power to the points was transferred from the rivets in the tab that comes from the closure rails, and power to the closure rails comes from the tabs connected to the stock rails. This is not quite accurate. Atlas turnouts are not power routing, so the point rails do not need to touch the stock rails to receive power. Every rail segment on an Atlas turnout should be powered once power is supplied to the stock rails. The only unpowered segments of an Atlas turnout are the guard rails and the frog. Once power is supplied to the two stock rails, the hinge plates transfer power to the closure rails and the point rails. The metal hinge plates do all of the work. Rich
Doughless I thought the power to the points was transferred from the rivets in the tab that comes from the closure rails, and power to the closure rails comes from the tabs connected to the stock rails.
Once power is supplied to the two stock rails, the hinge plates transfer power to the closure rails and the point rails.
The metal hinge plates do all of the work.
Rich,
Thanks for the diagram. A picture is worth a thousand words.
I was saying the same thing you are saying, the hinge plates (tabs) are the key, not the point rails needing to touch the stock rails. If the plates make poor contact for whatever reason, the turnout has problems. Since the frog is unpowered, soldering wires from the blue rails to blue rails and red to red bypasses the hinge plate. This may be a better option than to risk failure over time, which can happen when we slather the turnout with gunk, like caulking, gluing, cleaning etc. I don't know how well the plates are connected to the rails, but I do not think they are soldered.
I agree, we still don't the OP's problem, I just weighed in to point out that the point rails not making good contact with the stock rails is probably not the cause of the problem, if the OP's turnouts are stock Atlas.
Did he power the frog and mess it up?
Doughless In theory, since the point rails are not touching the stock rails, the loco should not have power to the right side. No problem. The loco started and moved just fine.
Incidentally, Doughless, when I said that this statement was not quite accurate, I may have misunderstood what you meant. Since the Atlas turnout is not power routing, there should be no need for the point rail to make contact with the stock rail to become powered. But, as I re-read your statement, I think what you may be saying is that the OP may be thinking that the point rail must make contact with the stock rail when, in fact, it need not.
gdelmoroDi need to change out the switch? :(
If they are PECO's they have little "nubs" which are supposed to slide under the stock rails to help with contact. These nubs are attached to the points and sometimes get bent downwards. Taking a small flat head and bending them up a little can help with these contact issues.
Sanding the inside the the points works well too.
But my tried and true method is to use a good power routing turnout machine like a tortoise that puts solid pressure against the points. (And optionally allows me to power the frog and points on certain models)
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
richhotrain Atlas turnouts are not power routing. So, there is no need for the point rail to touch the stock rail in order to provide power to the point rail. The point rails are already powered assuming that power is provided to the stock rails in some manner. Something is wrong with the OP's Atlas turnout. Rich
+1