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DCC Friendly Walther's turnout/Wiring question

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DCC Friendly Walther's turnout/Wiring question
Posted by Eisen on Saturday, February 8, 2014 9:16 AM

I've been using Peco code 83 electrofrogs with no difficulties on my layout. I found 4 walthers DCC friendly Shinohara turnouts in a drawer. Can they be used as is on my DCC layout? I had to insulate some rails on the peco electrofrogs (namely the two inner rails after the frog). I'm assuming the walthers turnouts due not have power routing as I see no indication of it on the box. Forgive my ignorance with the terminology.

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Posted by dominic c on Saturday, February 8, 2014 9:53 AM

The Shinohara's have insulated frogs. They are good to go right out of the box. If you want to wire the frogs, it would be best to use a tortise to operate.

Joe C

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Posted by maxman on Saturday, February 8, 2014 10:35 AM

Take a look at the frog itself.  If you see an insulator at both incoming and both diverging rails, you should be good to go.

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Posted by peahrens on Saturday, February 8, 2014 11:01 AM
It's also useful to look at the jumpers under the turnout to see what is same polarity. Also note that the closure rails are jumpered thus reliable but the point sections rely on good point contact for power, more than via the less reliable hinge. A Tortoise well installed holds the points to good contact plus adding frog power is pretty easy.

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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Posted by peahrens on Saturday, February 8, 2014 11:06 AM
Another suggestion...check the continuity between jumpered pieces with a meter before installing. A jumper can be bad but unseen so you are relying unknown on rail joiners or hinge etc. No need to install a flawed turnout.

Paul

Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent

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Posted by skagitrailbird on Saturday, February 8, 2014 4:38 PM

This is a good point.  And if you find a jumper or two that doesn't have good contact, you can always cut the plastic on the underside of the two relavent rails and solder in a small jumper wire.  No need to throw it away when repair is simple.

Roger Johnson
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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, February 8, 2014 8:20 PM

DCC friendly really has nothing to do with an all-rail frog or insulated frog. Either type can be DCC friendly. What matters is that the point rails are insualted from each other and are either nuetral or at the same polarity as the adjacent stock rail. The original Shinohara turnouts, the entire pojnt assembly trook the polarity of whicher stock rail it was against. So in the gap witht he open point rail, those were not the same polarity. An errent wheelset could easily brush the open point rail, causing a short. Many turnouts compensate for that by having a lmuch larger than prototype gap between the open point rail. When the point rails are isolated from each other and have the same polarity as the adjacent stock rails, that gap can be much narrower, making for a better looking turnout, because there is no danger of shorting.

                --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by maxman on Saturday, February 8, 2014 8:55 PM

rrinker
DCC friendly really has nothing to do with an all-rail frog or insulated frog. Either type can be DCC friendly.

I think that it does.  A turnout with an all-rail frog can be made friendly with the addition of some gaps.  Some insulated frog turnouts don't require the addition of any gaps, so that part of the job is already completed.

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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, February 8, 2014 9:02 PM

 All rail frogs require gaps on the diverging legs of the frog regardless if you use DC or DCC, DCC has nothing to do with it. See, for example, the Fast Tracks handlaid turnouts. The gaps cut in the PC ties that the point and closure rails attach to are what make them DCC friendly. The gaps in the rail for the frog are required no matter what.

                    --Randy


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by trainnut1250 on Sunday, February 9, 2014 6:24 PM

rrinker

 All rail frogs require gaps on the diverging legs of the frog regardless if you use DC or DCC, DCC has nothing to do with it. See, for example, the Fast Tracks handlaid turnouts. The gaps cut in the PC ties that the point and closure rails attach to are what make them DCC friendly. The gaps in the rail for the frog are required no matter what.

                    --Randy

 

I think you are forgetting that the closure rails/points being the same polarity as the stock rails will cause a short at the frog if it isn't insulated.  If the closure rails and points are neutral then you will still have the back wheel shorting issue when the points power the assembly for one polrity or the other and both points pick up the same polarity through the un- gapped frog

 

Guy

see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site

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Posted by rrinker on Sunday, February 9, 2014 8:51 PM

 No. Even Electrofrog turnouts have gaps there. They just jumper them by default and make the point and closure rail assembly all the same polarity, causing the back to back issue at the open point.

The gaps for the frog - they have to be there even for DC.

Open point being neutral instead of the same polarity as the closed point will not in any way cause a short if it gets bridged. For it to be neurtral the open point and closure rail has to not be in any way electrically connected to the other point and/or closure rail. Thus it would be electrically neutral compared to the adjacent stock rail and there could be no short. This is almost never done, because you'd need either a second contact set to power the point/closure rail, or the only source of power would be contact with the stock rail when closed, which is hugely unreliable. Really just throwing it out there as an example.

The fast Tracks way is exacelty what you get if you take a Peco Electrofog, remove the stock jumpers, and add in the new jumpers connecting each point/closure rail tot he adjacent stock rail.

The gap for the frog being a tie in front of the frog also makes it pretty much impossible for a wheel trad short. If a wheel tread bridges that distance, it's way out of spec.

                   --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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Posted by trainnut1250 on Monday, February 10, 2014 2:11 AM

rrinker

 No. Even Electrofrog turnouts have gaps there. They just jumper them by default and make the point and closure rail assembly all the same polarity,

The older electrofrogs that I have installed were power routing.  I had to cut the gaps myself...This has changed with some more recent designs but there are many out there that use the older power routing design..Check for the gaps.

Guy

see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site

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Posted by dante on Thursday, February 13, 2014 9:37 AM

skagitrailbird

This is a good point.  And if you find a jumper or two that doesn't have good contact, you can always cut the plastic on the underside of the two relavent rails and solder in a small jumper wire.  No need to throw it away when repair is simple.

 

Those jumpers are attached by what appears to be a tiny spot of solder. I was able to resecure one such with a small, pointed tip iron by holding the jumper down with another tool (whatever is handy) and just briefly touching the connection to the rail with the iron. Otherwise, add the jumper wire as advised (I did that, too).

Also, the DCC-friendly Walthers turnouts do differ in frog construction: the frog and adjacent guardrails are insulated; the older, non-DCC-friendly turnouts do not have insulated frogs which under certain conditions have to be gapped at their diverging end.

Dante 

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Posted by zstripe on Thursday, February 13, 2014 5:19 PM

Eisen,

A lot of wiring and other info on this site, with diagrams. Just click on link:

http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_atlas_roco.htm

Frank

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