Sometimes things happen in DCC that make no sense to me. I know from my days as a mainframe computer programmer that there is always a logical explaination, but finding it can be a real adventure.
Tonight, in the middle of my operating session, I had two trains going on my double track main, a westbound milk train and and eastbound wayfreight. Since both had to crossover to the other main to do some pickups or setouts, I was toggling back and forth with my wireless throttle (I have second one on order). Suddenly, neither loco would respond to the wireless. I tried the tethered throttle and both locos responded. Then I tried a number of locos in the engine terminal with the wireless. All but two responded. I went back and tried the two mainline trains again. Nothing. Finally I just shut the whole system down, counted to sixty, and powered back up. Everything was fine. I did a few more moves and then both quit responding again. Tried the power down and up again. This time nothing.
I have a Lenz system with CVP RF1300 wireless throttle. It doesn’t make sense to me that only some locos are failing to respond to the wireless. At first I wondered if the batteries needed recharging, but if that were the problem, why would some locos respond. I also don’t understand why these locos are responding to the tethered throttle but not the wireless one. At this point, I don’t know if the problem is with the Lenz system or the CVP throttle and receiver.
Last year I had a problem assigning new loco numbers and discovered that the Lenz system had an internal stack that apparently got filled up. I contacted Lenz USA and they connected me with a technician and he showed me a work around to clear the stack. I’m wondering if the throttle also has a similar stack and if it has filled up. Other than that, I have no ideas at all. For now, I’ve taken two aspirins and will try again in the morning. Does anybody else have an idea what the problem might be?
I know that CVP throttles have no stack, not even a recall stack, so that can't be the problem. Wireless throttles operate on a frequency range that is very close to the frequencies used by cell phones, so is it possible you had some interference from someone nearby using a cell phone? How far away were you from the receiving antenna? Was there anything between you and the receiver that could have blocked the signal?
It could have been some type of communication problem between the CVP throttle and the Lenz system, but I have never had a Lenz system so have no experience in that area.
Very unlikely cell phone interference. I live in the country. There is a house next door to me but it is about 200 feet away and about another 300 feet to the next house. Nothing but open fields and woods in the other three directions.
I was not very far away from the receiver. And I have operated in this environment for quite some time with no problems. This is a problem that just popped up out of nowhere. If the problem was interference between the throttle and receiver, it wouldn't explain why it happens only with some locos and not others.
I would replace the batteries anyway and test it, if you still have the problem, at least you could rule out the batteries. Right now you are just guessing.
Frank
zstripe I would replace the batteries anyway and test it, if you still have the problem, at least you could rule out the batteries. Right now you are just guessing. Frank
OK, new day. Fresh batteries. Same problem. Some locos just won’t respond to the wireless throttle. It seems to be completely random as to which ones do and which ones don’t. Different manufacturers. High and low road numbers(addresses). Steam and diesel. Doesn’t seem to matter. Some work, some don’t. I even have two identical BLI SW7 switchers. One works. One doesn’t.
I did learn one thing this morning. The wireless throttle doesn’t have a LCD display but the teathered throttle does and displays the address of the loco to which it is assigned. If I assign the tethered throttle to a loco already assigned to the wireless, the display blinks. When I assign the tethered throttle to a loco that is not responding to the wireless, it doesn’t blink. That tells me that the system is simply not accepting the assignment of the loco to the wireless throttle. But why? I don’t know if the problem is with the throttle, the receiver, or whether the receiver is not communicating with the Lenz system. But why just some locos and not others.
You are certainly right. I am guessing. And I’m running out of guesses. If anyone has any ideas, even more guesses, I’m willing to try anything at this point. I resumed my operation session this morning and did what the prototypes would do. I sent out a relief engine to each of these trains to complete their run. But obviously that is a short term solution. I can’t afford to simply mothball these locos that aren’t responding. Some of them are real workhorses on my layout and I want to get them back in action. HELP!!!
PS. I do have a CVP T5000e on order. It is an upgrade from the CVP RF1300 throttle I am currently using. It has a LCD display so I might at least get some better information. If that throttle works, then I’ll at least know the problem is in my current throttle. If that one has the same problem, then the problem is probably in the receiver or the receiver is not communicating with the Lenz system.
Just had a thought that came to me out of the blue. If one of the numerical buttons on the wireless throttle is malfuncitoning, it would not accept the assignment of the loco address. Looking at the locos that aren't responding, everyone of them has an 8 in the address. If the 8 button isn't working, I can't assign a loco with an 8 in the address to the wireless.
I have to check this out, but this seems like the most logical explaination I can come up with. I'll temporarily assign a new address to the problem locos that doesn't contain an 8. I'm betting they will start working.
DING, DING, DING!!!
Problem solved. The 8 button on the wireless problem was the culprit. I changed the 8 to a 4 in all those addresses and the locos began responding again. Unfortunately this is just a work around. The 8 button on the wireless is toast. Even if I press extra hard, it doesn't work. I opened up the throttle and discovered the circuit board is riveted to the face plate so without the right tool, I don't think I can lift the circuit board to see what I could do with the 8 button. I'll probably have to send it back for repair. It might make more sense just to buy a second T5000e throttle.
Nice detective work!!
I have a Digitrax wireless throttle that I suspect has a 'dirty contact' or ??? on one of the buttons as it sometimes doesn't work unless pressed a couple of times.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
I was just going to suggest you assign different addresses to the units that wouldn't work, but someone beat me to it.
I had a similar situation with my laptop a few weeks ago, and had to replace the keyboard. You might contact the Lenz folks and see if a replacement keypad is available. Or just buy a new one.
hobo9941 I was just going to suggest you assign different addresses to the units that wouldn't work, but someone beat me to it. I had a similar situation with my laptop a few weeks ago, and had to replace the keyboard. You might contact the Lenz folks and see if a replacement keypad is available. Or just buy a new one.
The throttle is a CVP product. At the time I bought it, Lenz didn't offer a wireless throttle (maybe still don't) but CVP had one compatable with Lenz and Atlas systems. Mine was the first generation. I'm guessing it is about 8 years old. I'm going to talk to the folks at CVP to get an estimate on the repair cost. Unless it is fairly cheap, I'll probably buy a second new one to go with the one I already had on order.
jecorbett PS. I do have a CVP T5000e on order.
PS. I do have a CVP T5000e on order.
Could you please let us know what you think of the new throttle? I have Lenz and would like wireless but the Lenz method using a cordless phone is not that great so was thinking of either getting the CVP throttle or changing to NCE.
Bill
bagal jecorbett PS. I do have a CVP T5000e on order. Could you please let us know what you think of the new throttle? I have Lenz and would like wireless but the Lenz method using a cordless phone is not that great so was thinking of either getting the CVP throttle or changing to NCE. Bill
I just got the throttle yesterday and just started to play with it last night so I don't think I can give a fair evaluation yet. At first glance, it seems to be a big improvement over their first generation RF1300 which gave me years of good service. It took me a little while to figure out what channel to set it to so it could talk to the receiver. The instructions were a little sketchy on that but I figured it out through trial and error. Other than that it seems pretty user friendly. Unlike the RF1300, you no longer have to open up the case to replace the batteries. There is a battery pocket on the back and it only requires two AAA batteries instead of the four on the RF1300. The LED display is a nice addition which was lacking on the RF1300. The display told me my rechargeable batteries were low which may or may not explain the slight delay in response time. The rotary throttle also is used to change directions. You push down on it to change directions. You also have the option of setting the power level of the transmission which might come in handy if you had a large layout with walls between you and the receiver. My layout is wide open so that was never an issue with my RF1300. It has an automatic shutoff feature which will be a big help to me because I have a bad habit of setting the thottle down at the end of a session and forgetting to power it off which kills the batteries. You can adjust the time of the automatic shutdown. As long as you are using the throttle, that shutoff won't kick in.
There are still some new features on it that I need to learn how to use. I think I am going to like this one, but I'll need to use it a little longer before I can fully endorse it. One thing I can say about CVP components is that I've never had a compatability issue between them and the Lenz system. If you do order from them, make sure you tell them you are running a Lenz system because they have to program them differently for Lenz.
jecorbett Unlike the RF1300, you no longer have to open up the case to replace the batteries.
There is a battery pocket on the back and it only requires two AAA batteries instead of the four on the RF1300.
The rotary throttle also is used to change directions. You push down on it to change directions.
but I'll need to use it a little longer before I can fully endorse it.
Try getting used to an encoder throttle. They are MUCH smoothr than some silly 300 degree max rotation from dead stop to full speed potentiometer. How do these other systems handle switching from controlling one loco to another with the potentioeter? If the new loco is going slower, does it speed up? If the new loco is going faster, does it slow down? Not much you cna do with a potentiometer. An encoder throttle can effortless switch between locos with no speed change because the physical position of th eknob (or thumbwheel) has no bearing on the speed step being sent to the loco. I avoid the potentiometer throttles like the plague ever since I got my first one with an encoder.
If I had NCE, all my throttles would be the e versions, not a p version would appear on my layout unless you broght your own. Since I use Digitrax, I have DT400 and 402 throttles, not a sincel UT4, I hate them. I haven't touched the console throttle on my Zephyr since I got the DT400 years ago, same deal.
It's also what makes one-handed operation so easy - just click the knob to reverse. Sounds like the new CVP throttles work the same way.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Texas Zepher jecorbett Unlike the RF1300, you no longer have to open up the case to replace the batteries. YEAH! So I presume one doesn't have to remove the antenna anymore either.
YEAH! So I presume one doesn't have to remove the antenna anymore either.
There is no external antenna.
Texas Zepher There is a battery pocket on the back and it only requires two AAA batteries instead of the four on the RF1300. Hmm I wonder if that means it is running on less voltage or that the batteries are now going to die twice as fast?
Hmm I wonder if that means it is running on less voltage or that the batteries are now going to die twice as fast?
Can't answer that, but I use rechargeable batteries. Now I can have two in the throttle and two in the charger so whenever the batteries do die out, I just recharge them. Yes, I know I could have done that before by buying four more batteries, but I'm a cheapskate.
Texas Zepher The rotary throttle also is used to change directions. You push down on it to change directions. the rotary just spins and spins without stops? Like the NCE thumb wheel? I hate that.
The rotary throttle also is used to change directions. You push down on it to change directions. the rotary just spins and spins without stops? Like the NCE thumb wheel? I hate that.
Texas Zepher but I'll need to use it a little longer before I can fully endorse it. What do you think about the Width? One reason I loved CVP was that the throttles were so narrow I could hold an operate it with one hand. As opposed to the Lenz fat bodies wired throttles. I was going to buy a couple new throttles but saw the new wide format and didn't make the order (I got an NCE Cab-06R instead). Plus I also don't understand why CVP can't make the adjustment for the different systems in the base instead of the throttles proper. The way it is now I have to have 1 set for Railcommand, 1 set for Easy DCC, and a 3 set for the Lenz. Most annoying and uneconomical. As such each system has 2 or 3 wireless throttles instead of just having a nice set of 8 that can be used on all.
What do you think about the Width? One reason I loved CVP was that the throttles were so narrow I could hold an operate it with one hand. As opposed to the Lenz fat bodies wired throttles. I was going to buy a couple new throttles but saw the new wide format and didn't make the order (I got an NCE Cab-06R instead). Plus I also don't understand why CVP can't make the adjustment for the different systems in the base instead of the throttles proper. The way it is now I have to have 1 set for Railcommand, 1 set for Easy DCC, and a 3 set for the Lenz. Most annoying and uneconomical. As such each system has 2 or 3 wireless throttles instead of just having a nice set of 8 that can be used on all.
It's roughly the same same width as the Lenz tethered throttle but not quite as long. That suits me fine. I've ordered a second T5000e and I'm going to rig up something where both are mounted on a single board, one for eastbound and one for westbound trains. I'm a lone wolf but I like to occasionally have trains passing each other in opposite directions. This will be easier with two throttles rather than trying to toggle back and forth between two addresses.
It sounds like your set up is a little more complex than mine. I just have the Lenz system and the two CVP throttles and they work well together.
The one negative comment I have on it is that there is a noticeable pause between throttle movement and loco response, about 2-3 seconds. Some of my locos already have a delayed response built in so sometimes there's as much as a five second delay between accelerating or decelerating of the throttle and the loco responding. I'm not sure of the reason for this but it is annoying. Maybe there is an adjustment I need to make to get a faster response. Right now, I have to start decelerating well before I want to stop the train. This is actually probably more prototypical, but I'd rather have a faster response and use my own touch on the throttle to gradually start and stop a train.
An update on CVP’s T5000 throttle since someone asked me for a review of it. I mentioned in my last post that I was experiencing delays of several seconds between turning the throttle knob and the loco responding. After working with it for several days, I discovered the problem was more severe than that. In some cases the delay was five seconds or more and when I was in the far corners of the layout where my staging yards are, I would get no response at all. There is a feature that allows you to increase the signal strength of the throttle but that proved to be of no help. Even using the max setting of 10 I continued to have problems. I would have trains enter my staging yard and I was unable to stop them, even using the emergency stop on the throttle and had to grab them by hand to keep them from plowing into a train ahead of them. I never had these problems with their first generation RF1300 throttle. I became so frustrated that I typed up a very negative review in full rant mode on the word processor, intending to post it here. I decided to sleep on it which was a good decision. I decided I wouldn’t post it until I had a chance to speak with CVP to see if the problem could be worked out.
Today I went back to the train room to see what else I could find out. The receiver has a panel of lights on the back. There are two green lights, a BUS light and an RF light. The RF light would always be blinking and at times, both green lights would go out. I found this strange because I remembered both lights being on constantly when I was using the old RF1300 throttle. I reloaded that one with freshly charge batteries and turned it on. Sure enough, both green lights came on and stayed on with no blinking. Then the thought hit me, what if I had both throttles on at the same time. I tried it and sonofagun, the new T5000 throttle began responding perfectly. I took the throttles to the far reaches of the layout and continued to get good response with the T5000. Suddenly, I was in a much better mood. I began moving trains around the layout. Then I noticed I was losing strength at the far ends of the layout again. I figured out that if I was more than 7 paces from the receiver, I couldn’t transmit. At that time, I noticed that I had moved the RF1300 close to the receiver. I decided to move it back to the far corners of the layout. BINGO!!! My T5000 suddenly began working at the greater distances as well. It’s as if the RF1300 is acting as a booster for the T5000 signal and the farther the RF1300 is from the receiver, the stronger the signal from the T5000 will be. This is actually a workable solution since I can keep the RF1300 turned on using rechargeable batteries while I operate the layout with the T5000. I don’t think it was intended to work that way, but I’m not going to argue with success.
I still intend to talk to CVP Monday morning and let them know about my experiences and see if there is another solution than the one I came up with. It seems to me the T5000, being the third generation of their throttles should work at least as well on its own as their first generation RF1300, but I’ll find that out when I talk to their technical people.
This will be my last word on the subject unless someone has further questions. I spoke to the people at CVP and got a little bit of help. Their main concern was that each throttle was assigned its own frequency. My old RF1300 throttle doesn't have an LED display and I didn't remember which frequency I had assigned to it so they had me change the frequency on that so I would know what it was and then make sure the T5000 had a different one. Other than that the only other suggestion I got was to play with the transmission strength which I had already done without noticing much difference in performance. I did notice a little bit stronger response to the throttle than the day before but I wonder if that could be because the air was much drier than it had been the day before.
I mentioned to the technical guy that I discovered that I got better performance from the T5000 when the RF1300 was turned on and he told me that didn't make sense. I agreed, but that seems to be what is happening. With the RF1300 powered on the two green lights on the receiver remain on constantly rather than blinking or turning off completely. I get better response from the T5000 when the RF1300 is on. I know when the T5000 is on by itself and those green lights go off. I have no control of the loco. It won't start and if it is in motion, it won't stop until the green lights come back on which in some cases is as much as five or six seconds.
Shortly after talking with them, my second T5000 arrived in the mail and my experiences with it were pretty much the same as the first one. It performs noticeably better when I have the RF1300 turned on and the green lights on the receiver remain on constantly. Go figure.
It sounds like the system is not polling the newer throttles unless the old one is turned on. Might be an issue with the radio base unit rather than the throttles.
If I understand what you mean by poling, I don't think that is the problem. The new throttles will communicate with the receiver even with the old one turned off. The problem is the communication is not constant as it is when the old one is turned on. What I do know is that when the green lights on the receiver panel are on, I get good communication with all my throttles. When they are blinking, I get a delayed response, and when they go out, I get no response at all. When the old throttle is turned on, the green lights remain on constantly. When the old throttle is off, the green lights blink and sometimes go dark. I've seen them go dark sometimes for 5-6 seconds at a time during which I have no control of the loco and no ability to stop it which is a major problem.
Keeping the old throttle turned on just to maintain a constant signal between the new throttles and the receiver is a workable solution. My worry is that if the old throttle ever dies, I'll have a serious communication problem with the new throttles.
I believe the system polls each throttle to see if it has any data. Perhaps not, since each oen has to have a different frequency. It definitely should not act the way yours is, the old throttle should ahve nothing to do with it, and the new ones should reliably connect either on their own or at the sme time, provided the settings are correct.
When you called CVP, did they check firmware revisions? There may be an update for the radio base to work properly with the new throttles or something that you don't have.
rrinker I believe the system polls each throttle to see if it has any data. Perhaps not, since each oen has to have a different frequency. It definitely should not act the way yours is, the old throttle should ahve nothing to do with it, and the new ones should reliably connect either on their own or at the sme time, provided the settings are correct. When you called CVP, did they check firmware revisions? There may be an update for the radio base to work properly with the new throttles or something that you don't have. --Randy
That never came up in the conversation. Their first concern was to ensure a unique frequency for every throttle. They also suggested increasing the transmitting power which is something I had already done.
I don't know a lot about the electronics involved and even less about the ins and outs of radio transimission. I can only tell you what I am observing. There is no question that when the old throttle is on the green lights on the panel remain on constantly. No blinking or going dark. It is also fairly obvious that I get better response to the new throttles when those lights are on all the time and no response at all when they go dark. Without the old throttle on, I get spotty resonse from the throttles when I am close to the receiever with a clear line of sight and almost no response when I lose that line of sight and/or move more than seven paces from it.
I can see two reasons why the old throttle could put out a stronger signal than the new ones. It uses four AAA batteries as opposed to two on the new throttles. The new throttles also don't have an external antenna. Why the new throttles seem to perform better when the old one is turn on I have no idea. It just seems clear to me that they do.
The lower power might make a difference at extreme distances, or if there is a lot of interference, but if you get the same symptoms standing close to the radio base, it's not a lack of power.
rrinker The lower power might make a difference at extreme distances, or if there is a lot of interference, but if you get the same symptoms standing close to the radio base, it's not a lack of power. --Randy
Well, I don't pretend to understand any of this. All I know is what works and what doesn't. Using the new throttles with the old one powered up works. Using them without the old throttle doesn't.
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
trainnut1250 A couple of quick comments from a long time CVP Wire less W/Easy DCC user.I have tried out the T5000 throttles and much prefer the older RF1300’s. T5000’s: Don’t like the size and feel in my hand, prefer a button rather than pushing the speed knob to change direction and really don’t like the stop less encoder wheel..Haunted system: I have had issues where a specific loco won’t like a certain throttle. All of my local experts agree that the different throttle should not make difference but my two BLI cab forwards (first run) don’t like the two new 1300’s, run fine on the old ones. I just run the BLI’s on the old throttles.On the batteries: The old throttles will run fine on two batteries. I broke the clip in one throttle and was advised (by CVP) to use just two of the battery clips – the throttle runs fine and doesn’t have any range issues. Apparently the original design eats batteries when the throttle is off as the batteries are wired in such a way that they try to even out voltage anomalies between batteries and end up slowly losing their charge in a tug of war. The new design eliminates this problem. Keith G. told us at an NMRA show that he was tired of fixing battery clips…Still really like the system, wish the RF1300 would be re-designed and offered again.Guy
As I stated in the OP, my years programming mainframe computers taught me that there is always a logical explaination no matter how illogical a problem might seem. There is a reason my throttles are acting the way they do. It just seems nobody knows yet what that is. For now, I've found a way to work around whatever the problem is. It might not be the best solution, but it is the only one I have right now. My concern is what do I do if the old RF1300 dies. That will leave me with two unreliable throttles. Then what do I do?
As for the old RF1300, I am suspecting there might be something more wrong with it than just the 8 button. I tried to move a loco with a 1607 address and it wouldn't respond. Maybe that whole bottom row is toast. Not a big deal since I now have two T5000s and if they can keep working togehter with the old RF1300, that is all I realy need. At this point, I am more curious about why things are the way they are. I have a workable solution, even if it is a bit jerry rigged.
One thing you might try is to switch around the frequencies of all of the throttles to see if that makes a difference. I had to do this when one of my throttles ( I have five) started acting up. One of the frequencies must have been getting interference from somewhere. re-shuffling of the frequencies (avoiding the problematic one) solved the problem. I have also found the CPFLs in close range (1 foot or less) cause wireless drop outs
I am praying that my current group of 1300's last a long time. Most of my buddies use the same system, some of their throttles are 1st generation (with the knobs for address selection) and they still work well after almost 20 years of operation.
I'm sure you checkerd this but ...You might also check to see which CVP software your throttles are using (version 430 or the new one - can't remember the number) might be a mismatch between an old 1300 running 430 and the new 5000's running the latest version causing your problem.
Guy