But the OP's dilemma is more from misunderstanding how certain components work than it is because he has the 10 amp system. His locos and decoders will be in no more danger from a 10 amp booster feedign the rails through multiple breakers set to say 3 amps than any of yours are from 5 amps wired right to the tracks. Maybe even less.
There's an issue with how much power a consumer electrical device can put out for either UL or SELV specifications, or maybe it's part of the NEC for low voltage devices. 10 amps is about the maximim, at 12-15 volts. 20 amps would far exceed that. 20 amps at 15 volts is 300 watts - that's not a power supply, that's an arc welder.
Though this may no longer be true - plenty of PC power supplies put out 60+ amps on +5V. Though the output is generally not exposed like a pair of railroad tracks are.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Well, I guess that is what it comes down to. I don't currently have any power districts or separate circuit breakers, just one undivided layout controlled by a 5 amp booster.
For the reasons that you gave, I am currently considering another 5 amp booster, dviding the layout into two districts per booster with two breakers per booster. This was discussed in a separate thread that i started a few weeks back.
But this thread isn't about me. My comments simply address the OP's dilemma over having purchased a 10 amp booster and now trying to decide how to deal with it.
In my case, I would rather deal with two 5 amp boosters than one 10 amp booster.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain I'm just saying that in my situation, under normal conditions, I have never reached 3 amps on my 5 amp system. So, I have a lot more than JUST ENOUGH POWER. 10 amps would be way too much. If it isn't, then why not a 20 amp booster? Rich
I'm just saying that in my situation, under normal conditions, I have never reached 3 amps on my 5 amp system. So, I have a lot more than JUST ENOUGH POWER. 10 amps would be way too much. If it isn't, then why not a 20 amp booster?
WHERE can I get a couple of those 20 amp Boosters?
It isn't the output of the Boosters - it is how you manage the output with the Circuit Breakers to the Track Blocks!
I can't understand why everyone is not using the Power Manager/Breakers to control the Blocks on the Layouts!
Having just one big block and someone else derails and shuts down the rest of the layout isn't any fun and could cause a long train to derail because of that!
Of couse - it is YOUR Railroad and one can do what they want!
But why take a chance!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
In all my years of electrical training - we were always told to size a Power Supply to have a bit of Head Room (more AMPs available than what the system requirements needed were) to be sure that the Transformer/Power Supply would not let the voltage sag when under a short sircuit contition just before the internal CKT Breaker would trip.
While this has worked well for me throughout my working career – it seems that all the so called experts are now stating otherwise!
While electronic power supplies have become the norm – I still like the heft of a good old transformer to run my Command Station and the reserve has NEVER let me down or the Layout either!
I have 1 Command Station/Booster & 3 Boosters (all 8 amp units) and they all have 1 or 2 – 4 way Power Mangers (which limits Track Amps to 3 amps).
With the ever increasing number of Sound Engines finding their way onto the Layout – I will probably run out of power sooner than later and have to add yet another Booster.
There has NEVER been a time I wished for LESS POWER on my layout but there have been way too many times I wished I had MORE!
You can do what you want – but NO ONE can ever convince me that less power (or JUST ENOUGH POWER) is better to run a layout on!
I should have been clearer in my first reference to the RRampMeter.
I don't use it to detect shorts, the booster does that quite efficiently.
I use the RRampMeter just to indicate the amount of amps being used on the layout at a given time under normal, non-short, conditions. Since I never even reach 3 amps under normal conditions, I question the need for a 10 amp booster, all rigged up with power districts and breakers just to prevent disasters.
Sell it and buy a 5 amp system which is much more appropriate to a home layout.
Properly acting circuit breaker will trip far faster than a digital meter can show a peak. MAYBE with an analog meter you'd see a momentary deflection of the needle as the breaker trips - but in the millisecond response times we're talking with these breakers, even then I doubt it.
maxman richhotrain I have a large layout and I use the NCE 5 amp system. My RRampMeter tells me that I have never even reached 3 amps. You have no intermediate circuit breakers and you've never had a short that tripped the command station breaker?
richhotrain I have a large layout and I use the NCE 5 amp system. My RRampMeter tells me that I have never even reached 3 amps.
You have no intermediate circuit breakers and you've never had a short that tripped the command station breaker?
I have had shorts trip the breaker on many occasions.
What I meant was that the normal usage has never even reached 3 amps.
My point was to challenge the need for more than a 5 amp booster for a home layout.
richhotrainI have a large layout and I use the NCE 5 amp system. My RRampMeter tells me that I have never even reached 3 amps.
It was probably not the right decision to buy it in the first place, but he's already got it, and a power supply for it (I hope it's the NCE 10 amp power supply, and not the Magna-Force - the Magna-Force, despite what Tony's might claim, is NOT powerful enough for an 8 amp booster, let alone a 10 amp one.). Selling it and buying a 5 amp setup will probably lose money. Adding breakers so no part of the track sees 10 amps will avoid problems. I'm not a fan of centralizing the power and then running long heavy bus lines all over - but we don't know the shape or size of the OP's layout and maybe he won't have any bus runs over 20-30 feet.
Now, if someone were asking which should I buy, the 5 amp or the 10 amp, I'd almost always say the 5 amp, even if it were a big club. More, distributed boosters is usually best. For track-powered large scale? 10 amps might be better.
I guess that, in part, that is my point, Pete.
Besides all of the electrical risks, and potential subsequent damage to loco motors and decoders, you need to buy all of those electronic circuits to protect your layout from the 10 amp output.
I have a large layout and I use the NCE 5 amp system. My RRampMeter tells me that I have never even reached 3 amps.
Rich.
Look at this way. When the 5 amp booster is nearing its maximum trying to power a lot of sound equipped locos and lighted passenger cars the 10 amp booster will be running cool and calm. All the OP needs to do is break up the buss coming out of the booster with individual breakers rated 3 amps or less into the individual power districts. This way only the district with a short will trip and nothing else. Its like having a larger battery to start your car. The only issue is where to put it. Going through the individual breakers the 10 amps will never get to the track.
Like Tim on Tool Time. More POWER ARR ARR ARR
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
So far, I think that I am the only guy who advised the OP to sell the 10 amp and buy a 5 amp.
That's what I would do.
I am not sure exactly what could go wrong with a 10 amp system on a medium sized HO scale layout, but I would rather not find out the hard way.
Unless the OP knows a lot about electronics, I gotta believe that he is asking for trouble by keeping that 10 amp system.
Add thye breakers as you originally planned. the breaker won't see the 10 amps if it is set to trip below that.
My N Scale club uses 8 amp boosters with breakers set to 3 amps. No problem since 2004. just make sure your wiring and track will pass the Quarter test. In other words, a short across the rails at any point trips the breaker immediately. I tell people to start counting as the coin is placed across the rails. If you get to two, add feeders.
Martin Myers
Having a 10 Amp system will be an advantage over the long haul if you ever expand your layout. In order to not have 10 Amps on your track, break the layout up into power districts with PSX or similar devices on each one.
Sounds like you'll work through this. The only thing I can think to add is to be sure you do what you need to do to pass the quarter test. Mostly, that's to make sure you have nice fat bus wire and feeders that aren't a mile long. So long as the system shuts down when tested, you should be protected if you use the circuit breakers, as this will ensure they trip properly and promptly. That's what avoids the ugly stuff.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
The Powershield breakers can handle 20 amps. Not an issue. Others can handle that much as well. Just use multiple breakers set for a more reasonable trip current (3 amps is usually plenty, even for multiple unit HO locos with sound) and thus a short in one section will never get the full 10 amps, plus someone going on the ground on one part of the layout won;t shut down the rest with no warning.
Thanks for your response - in fact, thanks everyone!
When I bought the 10 amp system I also bought the power supply recommended by Tony's Train Exchange for it. They've always seemed to me to know what they're talking about so I felt safe taking their recommendation. I don't have it, or the data sheet in front of me but you can bet I'll be checking that it has sufficient capacity to fully power the 10 amp system. I bought a PSX breaker too, a multiple breaker if memory serves (my stuff is an an outbuilding here on the farm and its getting close to zero outside so I promise I'll check it all later - and yep, the building its all in is heated - I just don't feel like going out there right now 'cause its so cold out!). I'm beginning to feel as though I didn't screw up too badly after all.
Thanks again!
Gene.
No problem at all. Break it down into several power districts through either the PSX or the less expensive On guard breakers. The most important thing is to have a power supply that can supply the whole 10 amps. If the power supply is too light then the circuit breakers may not work at all. Your lucky you have the capability of powering a large layout with a single booster. You will never have to worry about lighted passenger cars, too many sound decoders, and buying a separate booster to run accessary decoders for switches and signal systems. Having multiple track buss through separate breakers right off the bat will simplify your wiring from the start.
Don't think your alone. A member of my club has one 10 amp system for his G scale layout in the back yard and his HO layout in the basement. Flipping a toggle switch changes the layouts.
Another thing that you probably don't want to hear but should consider is to sell the system on eBay. If you got a great deal in the first place, and if it is like new, you can possibly recover what you paid or nearly so. There are a lot of super larger layouts, model railroad clubs included, that would be interested. Then, use the proceeds and buy the 5 amp system.
I am no expert but I don't think all is lost. I believe PSX circuit breakers will work for you. They trip faster than the system will and the trip level can be adjusted to a safe amperage level.
on my 5 amp system i feed the command station power directly to a panel with five PSX circuit breakers (two include auto reversers). The command station power goes to the input terminals of all five CB's. Separate pairs of wires connected to the output terminals of each CB become the power buses for each of five power districts.
on my 5 amp system i feed the command station power directly to a panel with five PSX circuit breakers (two include auto reversers). The command station power goes to the input terminals of all five CB's. pairs roseate pair of wires connected to the output terminals of each CB become the power buses for each of five power districts.
Hey folks! File this under "next time I'll do my homework. I'd really appreciate your thoughts, ideas, recommendations and experience on something I've stumbled over.
Over a year ago I saw an ad from a well reputed retailer advertising NCE DCC systems, including a blurb about the 10-amp DCC system being appropriate for large HO layouts. It was available at a nice discount so I bought it. There's where I should have done more homework. I thought I could send the power from the command station to different power districts through separate DCC breakers, and thereby avoid having to buy separate boosters for independent power districts.
Later on, after a long enought time that the retailer would no longer accept a return for a refund or substitution, and when I finally arrived at a point where I needed to make specific decisions about installing the system, I was doing some more reading online and saw something that frightens me. I had failed to consider the possible problems of sending 10 amps to my rails and other components, and saw a blurb somewhere about someone else attempting to do the same thing I was planning, and frying not only a lot of decoders, but the innards of their locos, motors, wiring, and other layout components as a result of a short nearby.
Initially I thought I could depend on some available DCC breaker to reduce the power down to no more than 5 amps per district, perhaps even as low as 3 amps per district. I did not think about whether any such breaker would act to open the circuit in the event of a short faster than the command station's internal breaker would. Nor did I look carefully at product lines to see if there even are DCC breakers available that will accept a 10 amp input and definitely reduce the output to no higher than 3-5 amps. I don't know how to evaluate the risk of 10 full amps shorting out, no matter how quickly a breaker may open the circuit, to prevent damage out on the layout.
I even emailed NCC with these questions. The response I got back, although with NCE's customary promptness and helpful, friendly attitude, wasn't reassuring. They said that they'll always say that the 10-amp system is intended for larger scales than HO, and that 5 amp systems and boosters should be used for HO power districting. The guy did add that they have heard of people with large HO layouts using the 10-amp system, passing it through fast-acting breakers. But he gave no further details.
So, your comments, cautions, experience and suggestions will really be appreciated. I suppose now the choice I face is to either sell this system at a loss (usually the way it works), or to come up with a better plan. My comfort level about using the 10 amp system is somewhere in the basement unless I can come up with something to do that will give me a good sense of certainty that I won't be frying things. Living on a fixed income of no great magnitude, I can't afford the extravagance of waste, through poor purchasing decisions or through equipment damage that I should have been able to avoid by better planning and any resulting jury-rigged efforts to get around those failures - and I could kick myself for not doing better research and thought to begin with, as now this also means more delay in getting my layout together.
Like I said, anything you folks have to offer will really be appreciated!
Gene Barfield, owner, Great Lakes & Hudson River RR