If you keep the Peco spring in, it won;t go back if you de-power the Tortoise,t he spring will hold it to whichever side you last set it to. The Tortoise might roll back a little to undo the tension on the actuating wire, but the spring int he Peco points will keep it set to whatever the last position was.
The only way a Tortoise really goes back is if in the fully thrown position, the fulcrum isn;t properly adjusted and there is a lot to tension on the actuating wire. If you cut power, the spring tension will force the Tortoise to roll backl the other way, and momentum in the Tortoise motor could cause it to keep going a little bit and actually slightly open the points. When a Tortoise is powered, you want it to hold the points firmly closed, but not have so much tension on it that barely budge it with a finger, unless you like repairing throwbard every few years. Prperly adjusted, a Tortoise that doesn't have continuous power applied shouldn't open the points up, especially on any of the commercial turnouts which all have hinged point rails. A hand laid tuirnout with continous rail points? That's a different story.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thank you bagal,
To the OP
I have a UP passing siding using Peco C83 #8 turnouts and #4 wye insulfrogs. I used Peco point motors and wiring was quite simple using two SPDT momentary switches, one to each main turnout, and paralled to the appropriate side of the Y point motor.
If you are using the Tortoise with the Peco turnout you will need to remove the turnout spring or use a larger actuating wire, 0.032" works for me.
Bill
Addendum:
I can not edit my post since every time I post a photo my EDIT button disappears! (I can not use Quote either but that's for another thread)
What I wanted to clarify was the S&S departments (Switch & Signal) use of Normal and Reverse for turnout points. That's what the N - R is above.
Draw out your plan, show each route you will need and indicate how the points need to be set for that route by noting N or R then translate that N/R into Plus or Minus for the Tortoise pads 1 and 8.
It will all become lucid when you draw it out.
Good Luck, Ed
Hi, Joeldee
There's lots of great suggestions here and I'd like to throw one more at you. I had a similar routing situation at my "CP Union" throat to Union Station. My double slip switches require an entrance-exit route, four Tortoises on each one.
I had previously set up a DC matrix using latch & release push buttons whereby I could simply press one button and my route would be setup. You have to draw out your plan indicating N or R for the point routing and just visualize how you want the Tortoise to see that position.
In my case I have four possible point conditions: Route A: B: C: D:
N-R
N-N
R-N
R-R
So you see you can use a ROTARY switch to select any route and any number of Tortoises you like.
Here you see me routed for straight through on track One, Two, and secondary...
And here I'm routed from One, diagonally across Two and the secondary and into the Union Station lead track.
All you need is at least a Two Pole, Break before Make rotary switch with at least four positions. Usually there are quite a few positions available on the switch, some have little pins to limit travel. If you supply your DC plus to one pole and DC minus to the other pole you can get just about any routing you want from each switch position.
This also gives me a nice visual route indicator on the "model Board" so I see at a glance which route I have setup. The only diodes you see here are the bi-color LEDs, none are needed in the wiring to block current.
Hope this helps you out and I hope I explained it understandably...
Ed
If you are going to go with stationary decoders, then this is where Routes come in handy. You have 3 possible valid routes: both mains straight through. North main straight, south main to center, or south main straight, north main to center. 3 buttons into a stationary decoder that can accept pushbutton input and also do routes, and 3 routes defined to set each of the 3 motors to the proper position.
Hallo Maxman, I thank you once again. This info about the push-buttons solves my temporary problem(s) with the switches while using the installed decoders. Yes, I am DCC and my system is Lenz (local). Your suggestions should work just fine with Lenz. The temporary push-buttons you have suggested have solved my desire to run locomotives on the tracks during the construction, track laying and wiring (As-I-Go) process. The computer programing will be the last thing once the track and wiring are down and tested manually. I built solid race engines this way while using the electronics to enhance not rectify- old dog. Thank you, joel
JDberlin maxman Each macro gets programmed to operate each attached accessory decoder in a defined manner. I must agree with you logic. With the numerous alternatives, and even if toggles would work, I think I would have locomotive bodies everywhere. I will buy the decoders! joeldee/berlin
maxman Each macro gets programmed to operate each attached accessory decoder in a defined manner.
I must agree with you logic. With the numerous alternatives, and even if toggles would work, I think I would have locomotive bodies everywhere. I will buy the decoders! joeldee/berlin
maxmanEach macro gets programmed to operate each attached accessory decoder in a defined manner.
If you use hinged points like Atlas, sure, they'll stay in place with no power. If you use all-rail (literally bending the 'iron') then maybe the Tortoise wills tay put, maybe it won't - depends on the rail code and size of the turnout (thus length of points) - a longer frog number will have longer points and more leverage, less force needed from the Tortoise. A small frog, short points, more force needed.
NP01 maxman However, I think you do say that there will be times where there will be no power to the Tortoise. Is that correct? The Tortoise really wants power to it all the time to keep it in one position or the other. , Once set in place (one or the other end) a tortoise does not need any power to stay there. It's OK to apply it, and if you are using in-series LED for turnout position indication then you need it. But you don't have to have power applied at all times. In fact, why burn the 20mA? On the DC part of my layout (about 14 tortoises) I often put the SPDT in the center ... Just because ...
maxman However, I think you do say that there will be times where there will be no power to the Tortoise. Is that correct? The Tortoise really wants power to it all the time to keep it in one position or the other.
However, I think you do say that there will be times where there will be no power to the Tortoise. Is that correct? The Tortoise really wants power to it all the time to keep it in one position or the other.
,
Once set in place (one or the other end) a tortoise does not need any power to stay there. It's OK to apply it, and if you are using in-series LED for turnout position indication then you need it. But you don't have to have power applied at all times. In fact, why burn the 20mA? On the DC part of my layout (about 14 tortoises) I often put the SPDT in the center ... Just because ...
Well, okay, that's what you can do if it works for you. My experience has been different. I have seen those things bounce back a little after being thrown, depending upon the length of the actuating wire as well as the springiness. The Tortoise is a stall machine, and is made to have current applied all the time.
If the OP is satisfied without the continuous power application, then what you propose might work for him. I was just asking if my interpretation of what you suggested was correct, because I would not like having the non-power position.
rrinker No, there's always be power, if you drive the Y for the middle track off contacts on either of the two mainline Tortoises. But this situation will require diodes, otherwise if you line conflicting routes (both mainline turnouts set tor the middle track), it would be a direct short, because contacts on one would want Pin 1 to be + and pin 8 to be - to point the wye at it, and the other would want pin 1 to be - and pin 8 to be + to point the waye at it. The only time the Tortoise would have no power would be when neither mainline turnout is set for the center track - in which case it wouldn't matter anyway. --Randy
No, there's always be power, if you drive the Y for the middle track off contacts on either of the two mainline Tortoises. But this situation will require diodes, otherwise if you line conflicting routes (both mainline turnouts set tor the middle track), it would be a direct short, because contacts on one would want Pin 1 to be + and pin 8 to be - to point the wye at it, and the other would want pin 1 to be - and pin 8 to be + to point the waye at it.
The only time the Tortoise would have no power would be when neither mainline turnout is set for the center track - in which case it wouldn't matter anyway.
Oh diodes probably more elegant, but I am having trouble coming up with that diagram. I was wondering an interlock to stop two thrown conditions on the main turnout.
Re: power, yep it's always there unless both E1 and E2 are closed because whichever one of them is thrown will feed EY.
NP01I think the OP's question is how to do this under DC. Later he plans to go DCC.
I wasn't sure, that's why I asked.
I'm not technically adept enough to comment on your solution. However, I think you do say that there will be times where there will be no power to the Tortoise. Is that correct? The Tortoise really wants power to it all the time to keep it in one position or the other.
I think the OP's question is how to do this under DC. Later he plans to go DCC.
Ok so let's call your mainlines 1 and 2, 1 Westbound 2 Eastbound. On the EAST end, you have two turnouts E1 and E2 on each of the mainlines, and a Y which we will call EY. Your goal is:
When E1 = thrown, you want EY=1.
When E1 = Closed, you don't care about EY and E2.
Here's what I would do:
#1. Use a +12v/0v/-12v supply. You can do this by connecting two 12v supplies in Series. This eliminates the need for DCC and you can use an SPDT switch. This will allow you to connect to 0V one terminal of each tortoise and simplify wiring. It will only cost $5 for an additional power supply. Tortoise instructions show you this. Wire E1 like ou would with the instructions.
#2. Connect 0V to Pin 8 of EY. The tortoise has two AUX contacts. Take your +12V and connect it to PIN 4 of E1. Then, take PIN2 of E1 and connect it to Pin 1 of the EY. Now each time E1 is thrown, your EY will be fed +12V on Pin 1 1. Pin 8 is always 0 - so EY will move. Leave pin 3 of E1 open - so when E1 is CLOSED, NO power is applied to EY.
#3. Do the same thing, except with the -12V wire, with E2 AUX controls. Now when the E2 is THROWN, you willl power EY with -12V on Pin 1 and Pin 8 is already conneced to 0v so the Tortoise will switch in the other direction.
#4. The above is not fail-safe. If you threw BOTH E1 and E2, +12V will short with -12V. This will not be good. So now what you have to do is you power E1 through the SECOND set of AUX contacts on E2 such that E1 gets power ONLY when E2 is CLOSED. This should work (It's late right now, I will think more tomorrow.)
When you do this- if one of the turnouts E1 or E2 is THROWN, the other turnout can not be thrown from the closed position. This is not only short circuit protection, but also basic interlocking.
I will try to draw a diagram tomorrow and post it.
You can do a lot of nifty things in DC. Just ask the Lion.
NP
Are you DC or DCC?
If DCC, this sounds like a situation where you have to either decide to go the stationary decoder route up front, or use some other temporary measure that will have to be replaced later. I don't think that Railroad and Company computer program will be able to throw those double throw toggles.
If you are DCC and use the stationary decoders, then you can set up what is called a Macro. Each macro gets programmed to operate each attached accessory decoder in a defined manner. So you would have macro 1 throw the east main turnout straight, macro 2 would throw the west main turnout straight, macro 3 would align the center Y turnout and the east main turnout, and macro 4 would align the center Y turnout and the west main turnout. Then you would need 4 more macros at the other end of this double ended configuration. Eventually the RR&C computer program would do all this.
I think that there is a way to have this all happen with fascia switches, but I don't know if DPDT toggles would do the job. I ind of think that you would need some sort of rotary swich to be able to connect the Tortoises and make them do what you want
If you are DC, then you'll have to find someone smarter than I that could tell you how they think it could be done.
Using DCC, I believe this may be a prime candidate for stationary decoder installations, each "route" would throw the necessary turnouts in the correct direction. I'm sure others more knowledgeable than I can provide further instructions on how this is done.
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
On the UP, a "Y" third track is used down the middle between the two mains for slower traffic. One Main heads East and the other heads West-NO exceptions as I have no Sherman Hill. I wish to add this slow lane passing "Y" consisting of a switch from each main into the "Y". BOTH Mains, and this track as well, are wired +/- the same using DCC so there are no reversing issues. All Main switches will be PECO Insulfrogs and the "Y"(s) will be from a Fast Tracks custom builder, as I run no small locomotives, and the builder states I can use his switch with, or without, a live frog.
I need your help in wiring the Tortoise motors so that when a Main Switch is thrown from straight ahead to a turn-in to the "Y" track, the "Y" Switch Tortoise is thrown to match the correct direction. This would make the controlling switches for the "Y" Tortoise switch, each Tortoise switch on each Main? Or, should the "Y" Tortoise switch be the control switch to control each of the Main-line Tortoises? I would think that the default should be that the two Main switches are always pointed straight ahead and not directed toward the "Y" accept when needed--making them the controlling Tortoises for switching? As can be seen, I am confused on how to best wire this Tortoise setup at each end of the passing track down the middle of the two Mains.
Initially for control, I think I will be using electrical double throws on the facia? Later, all switching will be done by the computer program from Railroad & Co. and this passing track will become a block.
Thank you in advance and I look forward to your expert advice--joeldee/Berlin