doctorwayne I dunno guys. I thought DCC was supposed to simplify the wiring. Here's my feeders - all of 'em, for about 200' of mainline track:
I dunno guys. I thought DCC was supposed to simplify the wiring. Here's my feeders - all of 'em, for about 200' of mainline track:
Wayne, that strip of duct tape is the reason that you can get away with a single pair of feeders. It acts as a high intensity conductor!
Rich
Alton Junction
rrinker If at any point this does NOT trip the breaker, you have insufficient wiring, either not enough feeders or the bus wires are too small for the distance they extend.
This is where I first got confused , once while hooking up a removable fold up in a newer area with out feeders, I got the BRIGHT Idea to check polarity by running a loco across the joint and if the command station shut down I needed to reverse wires and if not I was OK .......WELL the command station did NOT shut down but the loco (with dcc & sound) stopped on the joint BUT the sounds kept playing .
This made NO since to me ,so I went to look at the command station , when I returned smoke was pouring out off the said loco .....BUT I got lucky! YES it did melt the truck that was sitting across the joint into goo, but lucky it did NOT damage anything else... Wathers still carried the truck/gear assemble so I got off cheap for 25$...
I did quarter test at the joint and without feeders it would NOT cycle the breaker BUT after installing feeders as soon as the quarter hit the rail it would shut down .... saving my expensive fleet from melting.
I had always assumed the feeders were just for suppling power and voltage drop, did NOT understand the protective circuit ..JERRY
I usually run only two or three locos at a time (all on the same train), but have run over a dozen at once when the grandkids come to play. All of the track is soldered together except at the bridges, which are all removeable. I added jumper wires at those places, but haven't yet needed to connect them, as the rail joiners are still doing the job, although they've \been in place for only about 20 years.While I had heard of the quarter test, I wasn't aware of how it was done. Thanks for the explanation, Randy. When I tried it a few minutes ago, my quarter disappeared in a puff of smoke - I certainly can't afford to do that too often!
Oh, yeah, this is DC - guess it's lucky that I don't care all that much for wiring.
Wayne
I was going to make the same observation that Randy mentioned above since much of my trackwork is going on eighteen years now there WILL be a weak link somewhere and age, expansion and contraction or oxidation will rear its ugly head at the most inconvenient times. Feeders provide redundancy so that ALL of the current doesn't try to squeeze through a too small path. The elephant through the eye of a needle...
Another situation that I sometimes run across on my layout is that I'll happen to have perhaps eight, maybe ten sound locos and as many lighted passenger cars, many of those with capacitors begging to be recharged—and all of this current draw is pushing your ampacity to its limits—if I have even a breif short in that particular power district (like I run through a turnout I forget to realign!) Thats where feeders and solder are your best defense!
Take care, ED
Easy. Set a quarter across the rails at various spots around the layout (especially at the locations electrically furthest from the power source). At all points, this should cause the circuit breaker to trip. You do NOT press on the quater. Just lay it across the rails.
If at any point this does NOT trip the breaker, you have insufficent wiring, either not enough feeders or the bus wires are too small for the distance they extend.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
25'x42' (Rich)... really?... I am SO jealous!... Right on! I'm in a 12x20 room, which sounds great, but my RR only gets about half of it around the walls....
Now, would somebody PLEASE explain this "quarter test"? I haven't come across that one yet in all my reading! Thanks!
Duane
Rich, I am just about to start fixing ballast to the roadbed and wondered if you still have the proper ratios of soap to water as a wetting agent and the ratio for white glue to water that will hold the ballast in place????
As the last half-dozen comments have indicated in one way or another, more feeders is alwasy a good thing for lots of reasons. If you want any specific piece of track to be electrically reliable, it must be soldered to a feed. Anything else will eventually make you regret the brief time and cost in materials you thought you saved by skipping applying them.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Eventually, a loose rail joiner will fail to reliably carry power to the next sextion. Despite the relatively light weight of model trains, they do cause the joiners to move slightly every time a train runs over the joint. It might not be today, or next week, but eventually there will be power problems.
On my previous layout, which was a 8x12 donut, as soon as I completeted the main line I was able to run trains around with no problems - and the only power conenction was one feeder conneced right to my Zephyr. No slowdowns, no flickering lights - and I do not solder all my joints. Sure it worked - but for how long would it have worked? I went ahead and installed the bus and multiple feeders as planned.
One thing where feeders help - each of my turnouts has feeders on all 3 legs (they're Atlas, so no insulated joiners needed on the frog end). As such, even my smallest loco doesn't so much as flicker the headlight when crawling over one, even after I painted the rail.
I think it was Allan Gartner who said " Everything must be soldered to something" Meaning if a piece of track doesn't have a feeder, it should be soldered to one that does. I thought this was a good idea and followed it with my current layout and I have never had an electrical issue.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Since the OP has already promised that he will re-connect his feeders, this lecture is not for him.
Yes, it works now with all new rail joiners and freshly-laid track. But, 6 months, a year, maybe 4 or 5 years down the line, there will be problems. Engines will stall on turnouts. Whole sections will go dead. Relying on turnout points making contact with stock rails to provide electrical continuity will become more and more tenuous.
A long time ago, there was a movie called "A Thousand Clowns," starring Jason Robards, Jr. Among other things, our hero went to junk shops and yard sales and bought statues and wall hangings of eagles. "You can never have too many eagles," he would say.
You can never have too many feeders.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Dominic
I ran a 16 x 24 layout with just two feeders and it will work. This is what it is, we all manage to expand beyond what the origeal is so for every piece of track,every Loco or lighted passenger car and on to signals we add there will be a slight power loss. And will ad up over time.
That is why we spend the extra time now before rail paint, ballast and ground cover is in the way. It is a pay me now or pay me later thing . Lot easier done on a plywood empire.
If you have track sections with unsoldered connections you will find out where they are when you put out the ballast adhesive.
Lee
If you solder most joints, as many of us have accepted is a wise practice, you can get away with fewer feeders. FewER.
On my last layout, I had 14 gauge T-shaped bus with the arms of the T going about 10' in each direction. Off each of those came maybe eight pairs of feeders, but going to the track system which was in the configuration of a folded loop comprising about 50' of main tracks. I kept the distance between feeders to about 6', but I only fed my remote staging yard with a single set of non-soldered joiners. I had decent, but not great signal to the far reaches of that yard, which was on a shelf about five feet away from the layout. Sometimes a quarter test worked, sometimes it did not.
And that's how you know if you have enough voltage to any given stretch of track...the quarter test or equivalent.
-Crandell
Wouldn't the quarter test, done at intervals along the entire track, reveal the need for additional feeders?
I do not place a feeder onto every track but i do at each side of every turnout. I measured the resistance through my Peco code 83 insul frogs and if i recall coorectly it was about 5 ohms. Code 100's are a little less. In addition if the points get dirty the resistance can get higher.
The other and perhaps more important concern is how the short circuit protection will react. You do not want 4 amps continuously runing through some circuit not meant to carry that load.
My layout is made up of 8'x30" modules bolted together. I have a set of feeders in each module.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
dominic c Wow Rich! The size of you layout sounds so interesting to me. When I see dimensions like that, my eyes widen to a point and my first reaction is that I would love to see it.
Wow Rich! The size of you layout sounds so interesting to me. When I see dimensions like that, my eyes widen to a point and my first reaction is that I would love to see it.
Joe, it started out small, then grew, too much, too soon, too many locos. Initially, I had a 12' x 8' layout, then added a bridge to a 12' x 6' extension, then an 18' x 3' extension, and, finally, a 12'x 6' extension. It is fully sceniced and ballasted, and most of the track work is now nearly bullet proof, but it took me the better part of 7 years to catch up. Over the past 3 years, I have sold off a bunch of unnecessary locos and rolling stock. I am finally getting to manageable proportions.
I do have feeders every 6 ft. Please don't get me wrong, feeders are extremely important. I just can't help always remembering the one guy from MR, I think Andy something, who had a video of his work in progress layout saying that he powers every piece of track because he doesn't just joiners.
Joe C
While I don't use feeders or blocks on my small 1' x 10' and less switching layouts I do agree with Rich drop feeders every 6-9 foot. As far as turnout/switches wiring I recommend as needed..
The reason being the less wires the less chance of problems-let KISS rule.
IMHO there's no need for wiring overkill.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I don't know about every piece of track, that may be overkill, but I do place feeders on every end of every turnout.
My practice is to drop feeders at 6 to 9 foot intervals in addition to the feeders on the turnouts.
And, I solder the rail joiners on all curves.
I have a 25' x 42' double main line layout and that seems sufficient.
That said, why not drop feeder wires from the ends of every 36" piece of flex track?
You cannot have too many feeders, but you can have too few.
I was thinking about this for a few days. I've been laying new track. I guess my layout is considered small to medium. It's an L shape 5.5'x12x18x5.5'. A dual main. I am replacing track on my turn-arounds, I disconnected my feeders on both mains. 4 in all. And to check my curves are smooth I have been running an engine and my power has not been affected by not having feeders connected in the repair ares. It has just made me wander about the importance of feeders. I plan on reconnecting the feeders. But I think of the time that some people waste connecting almost every piece of track with feeders.
Just Some thoughts
JC