Georgia Flash Why do these motors/circuit boards different decoders? I continue to learn costly lessons during this transition to DCC.
Why do these motors/circuit boards different decoders? I continue to learn costly lessons during this transition to DCC.
I'm not clear what the problem is?? Sometimes manufacturers will make light board replacement "drop in" decoders designed to fit in a particular engine, since an Atlas lightboard is a different shape from an Athearn Genesis lightboard for example. However, as long as the motor's amp draw etc. is within the limits of the decoder, you can use pretty much any decoder in any engine. I've use drop-in decoders designed for Atlas engines in engines from Stewart, Walthers and others with no problems. If you want to use the engine's LEDs you might have to do a little extra work, but the decoder should still work fine.
Georgia FlashI'm sure this topic has been addressed by NMRA/MR/RMC, etc. There must be very practical and logical reasons why (HO) motors are not "standardized/uniform" across and within the industry
A specified "standard" motor that it would fit into a tiny Hustler type diesel would thereby cripple the pulling power of a monster DD40 that has to use the same motor. Or if the motor was selected to provide sufficient power or the big locomotives then it size has totally removed the possiblity of the smaller locomotives from ever being manufactured.
Basically such a "standard" if followed by the manufacturers would cripple drive line inovation. Imagine what may have happened if such a standard existed before the introduction of can motors. I'm guessing the standard might have been the famous Pittman design. If that were true we might not have ever gotten to the cans.
When thought through to its logical conclusion and consequence, such a standard would not be a good idea.
And, in keeping with all the replies above, look at any other manufactured product.
How many parts on a new Ford also fit a Chevy? - none.
How many parts on a new Ford fit a 15 year old Ford - few to none.
Sheldon
In addition to the above, consider that all locomotives are not created equal.
In my own 1:80 scale roster I have miniscule 0-4-0T-kettles and 12 driver (and one 16 driver) catenary motors, and every size of steam, diesel and electric between. The smallest motors (in Spectrum Alco 0-6-0Ts) were allegedly designed for N scale. NO WAY will they meet the power requirements of a six-axle ED62 class catenary motor. Nor is there any way to shoehorn the ED62's motor into a miniscule tank loco.
Trying to standardize on a single motor for everything sounds as practical as trying to standardize every diesel locomotive in North America (regardless of size or service) on a single, 'Universal,' prime mover. Guaranteed to cause more problems than it solves.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with a lot of different motors)
A typical HO can motor will be 18mm wide to fit inside the width of a HO hood. The length will vary from 25 to 35mm and height is 20 to 25 mm. The RPM will be between 8-10 K @ 12-14v. Most are 2.0 mm shaft OD.
No such thing as a motor standard, however.
Jim
There are no motors made specifically for model railroading. Nor are the quantities of locomotives produced in a given batch sufficient to justify a custom design. Typical production runs of Chinese-made plastic locomotives are 3K-5K, not the 100K or more for consumer electronics and electro-mechanical devices.
So the decision comes down to tagging on to a motor manufacturer's production run for another (non-model railroad) buyer, or buying a standard catalog motor. In either case, the motor buy is sufficient for that locomotive production run plus a few spares. If the same motor is available for the next production run of locomotives, and will fit inside the shell of the new model - great. If not, then find a new batch of motors to do the job.
The relatively small gain in performance in optimizing the motor for the locomotive, and the potential critical loss of sales from the increased price make the case for not spending a lot of time on motor selection for a production run. A can motor that will fit, has a 12V RPM of around 8K - 10K, has enough torque to not easily burn out (most do), and doesn't cost much will do well enough for the model to sell.
Several years later, the locomotive manufacturer gets an order to re-run a model. Chances are good the motor he used in the 1st lot is no longer available, and he will have to find a similar substitute.
There's a reason can motors are bought/sold for model railroading based on size and RPM - there usually isn't enough difference in performance for most to justify the cost of a brand-name motor, Canon/Bowser and high-end brass being the exceptions.
just my thoughts and experiences
Fred W
Shoot G, Man.
If you think Atlas is bad try P2K/Lifelike/Walthers. They had over 9 different boards in some locomotives. The first thing to learn about decoder installing is don't buy one until you know what you will need. Or you can do what Randy and I do. Strip out all that junk and hardwire a nine pin JST harness or buy the board replacement decoder needed. Now there seems to be a trend toward the 21 pin socket. One reason why I like the steamers. A lot less wiring to do without all those fancy functions.
I have been picking away at a freinds project loco. An SD something or other(I'm not diesel literate) from P2K with front and rear headlight and mars light, front and rear ditch lights, beacon on the roof, number board lights, and sound. Thats ten separate functions to wire with SMLEDs. I have to use 2 decoders. One is the ESU Select for sound and motor with headlight and ditch light control. Then a 4 function TCS decoder for the beacon, mars, and number boards.
Crazy.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
If they are fromt he same run, both those Atlas locos should be identical. But many of the locos Atlas sells have been made over a number of years, some even before DCC - no way would that just be plug in, there was no concept of DCC. Each new release, if there is somethign worth updating, Atlas will update it.
Some old Atlas was made by Roco for them, then later Atlas produced the same loco themselves. Other early Atlas were made by Kato, and then later Atlas produced the same loco themselves.
Your first lesson: the box saying "DCC Ready" is meaningless. It's a marketing term. Sometimes DCC ready means you plug in a 9 pin decoder, sometimes an 8 pin decoder, sometimes swap out a whole board. Sometimes DCC Ready isn;t even DCC Ready - Proto 2000 Alco switchers for one, they have a simple plug in for a decoder, but you also have to change the lightbulbs - AND the way the loco is wired, if it derails, it could blow your decoder.
Lesson #2: learn to solder, using a small (15-25 watt) iron for the small decoder wires. Why? Here's what I do - I do NOT fool around with factory circuit boards and seeing if they are DCC ready or not. I rip all that out. Incandescent bulbs? Gone the way of the Dodo. I replace those with LEDs. All wired in to the loco, no plugs, no silly plastic clips sort of holding wire to the factory boards. I try to use the same decoders, although some smaller locos may require a smaller decoder. The direct wired decoders are cheaper than the special board replacements, so a little soldering over a few dozen locos saves a bunch of money. And if I decide to work on a particular loco, I usually don;t have to worry about ordering a decoder, as in, aww shucks, can't put DCC in my Atlas RS3 because the only decoder I have is for a Proto 2000 Geep.
There's no standard for motors because what fits in one loco might not fit in another. And different locos sell for different prices -= part of it is the quality of the drive train. It's a way manufacturers can differentiate their products - some can start and run on only 1 volt on DC, orhters need as much as 4-5 volts to move, and leap into action. Price though is not the indicator - I have some Walthers Trainline FAs, the detailing needs help like adding some free-standing wire grabs and so forth, but even before DCC, they will creep tie to tie on DC, and they were under $30 list when new.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I'm sure this topic has been addressed by NMRA/MR/RMC, etc. There must be very practical and logical reasons why (HO) motors are not "standardized/uniform" across and within the industry. For example, HO locos that are produced/marketed by ATLAS as "can motors..." are quite different from HO loco motors produced by ATHEARN or BLI or Walthers"PROTO", etc. So, specifically, I ran into this dilemma when I recently ordered decoders from TCS (who are very friendly people, BTW) for two ATLAS locos - (Alco C-400 series). It seems that each loco shares same/identical frames, brass flywheels; similar bodies and exterior details. Why not identical "can" motors and/or circuit boards that are DCC-ready? Why do these motors/circuit boards different decoders? I continue to learn costly lessons during this transition to DCC.
Thanks,
G'Man