Hi all, forgive a newbie intruding on an existing post. Like many I DID consider price when heading to DCC (I have a number of old AHM rivarossi, pocher, etc I wanted to convert) so I decided on MRC Prodigy. It may be a great intro system but I experienced problems. Decoders kept resetting to factory or simply losing their minds. At one point a GG1 locked up full throttle heading into a curve (caught in midair!). My mistake? Consulting Alexander Hamilton before a client of mine-who just happens to be a retired electrical engineering professor (and tinplate modeler) whose Expertise? Pulse width modulation motor control! (lesson learned, I talk to him ALOT now). I mentioned my woes and when I said MRC he made the funniest face! He offered to loan me an oscilloscope because "what I would see would make me nauseous". Apparently MRCs wave generation is very noisy-even a set of R-C snubbers couldn't snuff out the hash. He implored me to reconsider Digitrax, which I did with no regrets. I am running my starter Zephyr on the prog track as read back is better, with a super chief system running the main show. Dr. Sayre's diagnosis? Not all systems are equal. For decoders I've dealt with dig, NCE, TCS, and MRC. Too many troubles with MRC (sorry), for patience with customers TCS takes the price, for my patience while waiting for excellent repair it's NCE, but again overall? IMHO it's the Florida crew on Transmitter Rd! Ok, newbie done now.
pdansalvishWould I need a auto-polarity reverser with this system similar to Tam Valley Depot Frog Juicer, which from my understand can control my switches?
A Frog Juicer's only capability is to control the polarity of switch frogs, that small section where the rails cross, where the two divergent rails meet in the middle. On some turnouts, these are plastic and can't be powered.
The choice is, to some extent, dictated by how you throw the turnouts. If you use manual ground throws, you can get a Caboose Industries model that includes contacts. If you use Tortoise switch machines, you will get contacts as part of the machine. Atlas makes a "deluxe" model of its twin-coil machine that includes contacts, and Peco makes an add-on unit to do this for you. (Does anyone know if Peco makes turnouts with metal frogs? All my Pecos have plastic frogs.)
The Atlas "deluxe" machine is an under-table mount. Unfortunately, these are designed so that they mount 3/4 inch below the track, so, roadbed on 1/2 inch plywood or track directly on 3/4 inch plywood, but that's about it. With 2-inch foam, forget it.
On my layout, I've got 3 Atlas Customline turnouts, all powered by the non-deluxe Atlas machines. I could use a Frog Juicer to control those frogs, and I may some day do that.
Since your layout is "new construction," if you want powered frogs (and I would recommend them) then you'd might as well go with Tortoise machines.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
cacole ZIMO is not very well known in North America, and doesn't seem to really be pursuing the North American market; thus they have very little support available in the U.S., from what I have been able to find.
ZIMO is not very well known in North America, and doesn't seem to really be pursuing the North American market; thus they have very little support available in the U.S., from what I have been able to find.
No, their system is not heavily supported this side of the Atlantic. I thought I would add another good system to the mix. Personally, I run Digitrax. I also drive a Chevy, but would drive Mercedes if I could afford it.
ZIMO does have one of the best designed DCC systems in the word. ZIMO is cutting edge. They were the first to be able to upgrade their firmware by downloading at home. As a matter of fact their system had that capability from day one. Their decoders have the same capability. M.B. Klein sells ZIMO decoders.
Martin Myers
pdansalvish Would I need a auto-polarity reverser with this system similar to Tam Valley Depot Frog Juicer, which from my understand can control my switches?
Would I need a auto-polarity reverser with this system similar to Tam Valley Depot Frog Juicer, which from my understand can control my switches?
No, you would not need to install an auto-reverser because there are no reverse polarity issues on that layout.
A simple way to locate any reverse polarity issues is to take two colored pencils, say red and blue, and trace over the outer and the inner rail, using red on one rail and blue on the other rail. As long as there is no color mismatch, there is no reverse polarity anywhere on the layout.
Make a copy of the layout, using this link, and apply two different colors to the rails and you will see for yourself. You may want to print a larger track diagram so that it is easier to color the rails.
http://www.billandwalts.com/wdl_1183tp.ep.html
Have fun, it is a good learning process.
Rich
Alton Junction
Gentleman,
I want to thank you for all the advice you have given me. You gave me lots to think about. Unfortunately, I have to learn DCC, using scenery, etc... all on my own. The nearest hobby shop with reliable information is 2 1/2 hours away. In theory the nearest model railroad club is also close to an hour away. So I have to use forums like this to get information.
As for the layout, when I looked at the track plan originally I thought the X-crossing was an over and under layout. It was not until I saw a video of a the system did I realize my error. Which brings me to another question.
NCE and Digitrax are made in the USA, and are serviced in the USA, which can be a major consideration when selecting a system.
I have no experience with Lenz systems to know about their service and support availability, but Lenz decoders are top-notch products that have never failed.
ZIMO
http://www.mrsonline.net/html/comparison_chart.html
I also (last year) got down to Digitrax vs NCE for my new HO layout. I don't think you can go "wrong" with either as many like one or the other. Above advice is useful; e.g., try them out.
Do recognize that some auxiliary track power items, if you need them, are independent of the brand of primary items you buy (source power, controllers). As an example, I wanted 3 "subdistricts" (needing circuit boards) downstream of my NCE system (2 with reversing loops, one just a subdistrict circuit breaker) and found I could choose from several non-NCE items.
On turnouts, decide on how you want to control them (through the DCC system or otherwise). I decided to build a schematic turnout control panel ala an MR article, using DC power via DPDTs with LED turnout position indicators. I love it, and thus do not regret not bringing the turnout control approach into my DCC system decision.
I did enjoy consulting with Tony at Tony's Train Exchange to ensure I understood the decisions I made at the time.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Generally speaking I agree with those that advise to get the system with the controller that feels most comfortable for you. But, overlaying that advice is to consider what other modelers of your acquaintance are using. If you have the same system of at least one or two of them, they can become your support team.
I did an informal count of systems while I was visiting layouts during the GSD (Garden State Division) MNRA fall meet a few weeks back. Most of the home layouts used NCE but they also said MRC was worth a look.
This is the Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge vs Toyota vs Nissan vs Honda etc debate.
Joe Staten Island West
The advice I give to any beginner is to use as many systems as possible and decide after having some experience. Ergonomic preferences vary between individuals, so one person's favorite may not work as well for another.
All of the major systems work fine (NCE, Digitrax, Easy DCC, MRC, Lenz). Choose one of those that you like and you really can't go wrong.
Rob Spangler
Mark R. Flame away .... Mark.
Flame away ....
Mark.
Mark, you're a stitch.
I have the ESU EcoS system and wireless throttles, but would I recommend it ? .... probably not. Total investment would be more than your 4 X 8 layout with all the engines and rolling stock combined !
That being said, I regularly run on a number of layouts that have a mix of Digi-trax, NCE and CVP Easy DCC. All the systems are wireless, and for the most part, all function as expected. But again, they are all overkill for a 4 X 8 layout with a couple trains.
To be perfectly honest, even though they get downplayed a lot, the MRC system really isn't all that bad. I know three different small layout users who have the MRC Prodigy system and have never had a problem with it. The hand helds have a knob throttle which a lot of new users prefer in transitioning from DC to DCC. Plus, the system won't break the bank if you are just testing the waters.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
locoi1sa Dave. This topic seems to be a weekly debate that always ends up in a battle between NCE and Digitrax users. Mr. Beasley has already given you the best advice.
Dave.
This topic seems to be a weekly debate that always ends up in a battle between NCE and Digitrax users. Mr. Beasley has already given you the best advice.
Hey, wait a minute. Didn't I give the best advice?
I will say this, mobilman gave the worst advice. Digitrax?
This topic seems to be a weekly debate that always ends up in a battle between NCE and Digitrax users. Mr. Beasley has already given you the best advice. Do not pick the system but instead pick the thing you will handle and use to control the system. There are many more than Digitrax and NCE. There is CVP and the easy dcc system, http://www.cvpusa.com/ ESU and the ECos system, http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digital-control/ecos-50200-dcc-system/what-ecos-can-do/ Lenz with two systems, http://www.lenzusa.com/ MRC and their Prodigy systems (Not recommended by many for a variety of reasons) And slowly forming but looks interesting, Railstar. http://railstars.com/
Controlling turnouts, turntable pits, and other accessories can be done with your hand held throttle. Many find it cumbersome and confusing while operating trains. Our club uses a dispatcher to operate the mainline turnouts through a control panel. Local and switching ops are done using the brakeman in three man crews or the conductor on two man crews for all other turnouts. We did try the throttle control turnouts for the dispatcher but he lost sight of indications when it got busy and actually slowed up operations. I have seen layouts that are computer controlled from another state and right in the same room.
The choices are many and varied but it still boils down to how it fits in your hand. My favorite throttle is my Lenz LH90 but the power cab I have at home is the easiest to use.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Hi again,
When I studied the options for conversion to DCC, it came down to Digitrax and NCE. At that point, I began asking questions on this (and another) Forum, and did a lot of research, but still I was undecided.
Finally, it hit me............... let's check out what the folks with published RRs use!
Sooo, I pulled all of the issues of Great Model Railroads (I have them all) and went thru each one, quantifying the DCC system used. Over all those years, Digitrax was the clear winner, with NCE running second............... Sooooo, I jumped in and got the Super Chief system, and have been very happy with it. However, all of my decoders are NCEs.
All that being said, as far as operating systems.....................
DIGITRAX RULES !!!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
richhotrain Train Modeler I do not like the thumb wheel which NCE uses. The use of that thumb wheel is optional. It is one of three methods to control speed. Rich
Train Modeler I do not like the thumb wheel which NCE uses.
I do not like the thumb wheel which NCE uses.
The use of that thumb wheel is optional. It is one of three methods to control speed.
Yea, but it was the best of a bad lot to me. And didn't have dual controls which we use a lot. Also, just a couple of clicks for MUing.
Richard
Several years ago I bought an 8 amp large Digitrax radio system. 2 years ago I bought another Digitrax system--Zephyr Xtra. I like Digitrax because of the loconet and their large throttles each have 2 knobs for controlling trains. You can use a DT402D for example with the Zephyr Xtra through loconet. I made my own extended cable but could have added a radio interface UR92 since the DT402D is radio too. Of course you can use the Zephyr without the extra throttle too, lots of flexibility.
I would either get Digitrax or NCE depending on what you want and who can support you if you need support. Buying from a good LHS can help, I certainly did and do so now. I do not like the thumb wheel which NCE uses.
Everyone will recommend the system they use. After all, that is why they selected it. No one else knows what YOU need or desire.
I have the Digitrax Duplex Super Chief. I started with a Woodland Scenics River Pass built for the grandchildren's Thomas the Tank Engine. It has grown into an 18x20 around the garage layout including a subway. I operate my switches via DCC because of it's ability to run routes. (Some systems call them macros.) When I want to access track 3 in the yard, I press switch "3" and the DCC system sets all the switches in the yard ladder. I also use detection to operate 3 grade level crossing signals.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
All good points here, but if the OP is looking for a quality DCC starter system, I say, look no further than the NCE Power Cab, and then in time graduate up to the NCE Power House Pro. At that point, the Power Cab can be used as part of a more sophisticated system.
Dave,
Isn't the WS Grand Valley layout a 4 x 8 layout?
Operating two locomotives simultaneously on a small layout w/o an "X" crossing is challenging enough. Add the "X' crossing AND keeping track of both locomotives (so that they don't crash into one another) can become nightmarish. Add tunnels (i.e. limited views) and it's an accident just waiting to happen.
With that kind of scenario, using your throttle for turnout control is not very advisable because it doesn't allow you much of a cushion when needing to make quick decisions - i.e. avoiding inadvertent "cornfield meets". Remote turnout control via momentary switches would be much more advisable. You want operating your trains to be an enjoyable experience; NOT a mental workout every time you rev up the throttle.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
First, welcome aboard!
Visit some trains shops, train shows and clubs, if possible. I chose my Lenz system in part because I like the throttle. That is your interface to the system, so you should make sure you're comfortable with the one you choose. Although any decoder-equipped locomotive will run on any DCC system, the same is not true for throttles. If you buy a Digitrax system, you will have to use Digitrax throttles, and the same goes for NCE, MRC and Lenz. So, make sure you like the throttle.
One common misconception of running turnouts with DCC is that you must use DCC to run them. That's not true. While you can use your throttle to control your turnouts, you don't have to. You can use a panel-mounted toggle, just like in the old days. Or, you can wire things up to use either a panel or your throttle. DCC gives you more options without taking away the old ones.
Hi, and welcome to the forum!
Picking a first DCC system is a mixed bag. The good news is there are 4 or 5 main players in the arena and all are pretty good. The other news is most of us are very subjective as to which is best.
After 50 plus years of playing with trains, I finally converted to DCC a few years ago. I narrowed the selection to either Digitrax or NCE. Both have quality products and have a line-up for all needs. But to ask someone which is better reminds me of the old "Ford vs. Chevy" discussions of my youth.
Check out their websites and you will find that each has a terrific entry level set up.
My wife purchased for me a the Woodland Scenics Grand Valley HO Layout kit along with the Atlas rail kit. The rail kit includes 2 switches and an X crossing. I would like to make to use remote control to change them. I would like to use DCC on this setup to run 2 trains and to control the switches. I would like some recommendations for a DCC system and other electronics for the switches?