First as JaBear implies the frog # part of your question depends on if you are talking about Peco Code 100, 83, or 70 track. The code 70 and 100 are built to European curved turnout designs and are rated in small, medium, and large rather than a number. With those I have found that the "small" turnouts are not nearly as bad as a North American #4 turnout. I (and my club) have used them extensively. The Peco Code 83 turnouts are North American templates and do have true frog numbers. I have not and will not use a #4. I never use true #4 turnouts (Atlas Custom Line #4 is not a real #4). Regardless which type the general rule of thumb is that the larger one can use the better.
As for the electro vs insul frogs. When they were new our club got all excited about the insulfrogs (myself included) and immediately started using them. What we discovered was the insulated frogs weren't quite as insulated as we hoped and we had issues with the metal wheels of the freight cars jumping the gap between the to closing rails. We easily fixed it with clear finger nail polish, but that makes the distance the turnout is insulated that much longer. Plus the finger nail polish needs to be "refreshed" every so often as it wears down. We worked on a more permanent solution fitting a piece of styrene into the frog where it was jumping the gap. We soon decided it wasn't worth it and went back to the totally dependable electro frogs. The extra gap/wiring is much less a hassle than the shorts we were getting on the "insulated" frogs. Plus with the electro-frogs the operation is stall free - not that that was a huge issue either.
My layout uses 36 Electrofrog Pecos with frog switching done externally - the bottom jumpers are cut, and also, jumpers connect the stock rails to the point and closure rails. This setup provides the best continuity for small engines, and the least likelihood of metal wheel shorts. The added jumpers keep the point and closure rails from losing power if the contact area between point and stock rail gets dirty.
This setup requires a little more work, but has been trouble-free, except, as stated, the external switch needs to be reliable. I use the Tortoise contacts, but have had two sets go bad over eight years; they are only rated for one amp. Using both Tortoise contact sets in parallel should be better. The Frog Juicers are good, but I needed DC compatibility.
Hal
I ditto the previous remarks and will only add that I run 6 axle diesels through a #4 Atlas insulfrog turnouts regularly w/0 any problems. I do have some short wheel base steamers that die on the dead frogs due to loss of power (not shorting). You can solve this problem in several ways.
1. Use powered (i.e. electrofrogs) frogs...expensive and adds a reliability concern (the dpdt switch)
2. Use a frog juicer...expensive and works only in DCC.
3. Modify steamers to add all wheel/all polarity pickups on tender and engine (cheap but tedious..it makes your steamers the equivalent of an all wheel pickup diesel.
4. Use stay-alive decoders (decoders with built-in capacitance to power through dead spots)
5. Use five-finger switching....cheap but considered by some to be cheating.
good luck to the newbie.
George T. Galyon
Gidday Jeff, to the forum.
The local club and modular group, HO, that I am part of, mainly use PECO Code 100 Electrofrog turnouts.
Here's a link to the PECO turnout plans...................http://www.peco-uk.com/page.asp?id=pointplans very handy for helping set out an actual track plan.
You will notice that PECO refer to Small, Medium, and Large, these bear no relation to the numbering system of turnouts in US track plans.
As has already been pointed out the size of the turnout depends on the wheel base of the locomotives and rolling stock.
As most of our turn outs are within arms reach, especially the modules, we don't use switch machines. "Choke" cable for any that maybe out of reach. That said PECO have their own switch machines.......
http://www.peco-uk.com/product.asp?strParents=&CAT_ID=0&P_ID=17683&strPageHistory=search&numSearchStartRecord=10
and here's a basic wiring diagram.
Have Fun,
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
My roster is just about the diametric opposite of Crandell's (my BIG loco is a cosmetically modified Mantua 2-6-6-2.) I also run MU cars that pick up from one short wheelbase truck on each side, 0-6-0T and 0-4-0T steam, a diesel 'critter' and a four wheel rail bus. For me, anything that doesn't have a hot frog is DOA in my layout space.
That said, I hand lay all of my specialwork. My low-drivered 2-8-2s and 20 meter 'long' cars are happy with honest #5 frogs. If I planned to run US prototype 'foot-long' passenger cars and even longer humonguboxes and TTX flats I would almost certainly go to #6 frogs. A lot of my specialwork is on curves, laid to radius, and only (that Guy that's supposed to know everything) has any idea of the actual frog numbers.
John Armstrong wrote thet using frog #s larger than the minimum necessary for reliable tracking is a waste of space. My staging yards use either #5 or laid to radius on 610mm radius curves frogs. I've also assured that there is adequate access to all of my tracks in the Netherworld - especially the specialwork.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Jeff K ...? Also I'm planning on having a hidden staging yard that's long but not very wide. Any suggestions on frog sizes to get the most track in the area? What is the smallest frog you can have without having a de-railing problem? #4 #6 #8? Thanks Jeff
...?
Also I'm planning on having a hidden staging yard that's long but not very wide. Any suggestions on frog sizes to get the most track in the area? What is the smallest frog you can have without having a de-railing problem? #4 #6 #8?
Thanks
Jeff
Hi, Jeff. I use some hand-made #8 turnouts with dead frogs, and otherwise I use exclusively curved Walthers/Shinohara #8 turnouts, also with dead frogs, and Peco Streamline Insulfrog Code 83 #6 turnouts. I have large steam and some longer modern diesels, plus some very long heavyweight passenger cars. As you would expect, things go through the hand-made #8's very nicely, but they also go through the Peco's very easily as well...no problems whatsoever. I think most would be okay with a proper/non-stingy #5, but most definitely not through a #4...not the 4-8-4 Northern types nor my longer 2-10-4's. Neither would the heavyweights.
I have never tried the larger modern main-line diesel locomotives on anything smaller than a #6, so I can't say how they'd do on a #5. I suspect they'd be okay if there were no grade changes near the turnout. I suspect a #4 would present problems.
The higher frog numbers mean longer turnouts, so any stubs in a yard issuing from them will have to be somewhat shorter. However, the lower number frogs also require a sharper curve to get the parking/classification tracks, the ladder, parallel if they all line up nicely on a lead. That could affect the first ladder due to the creation of an S-curve in some cases...depends on how much lead you give the first turnout that leads to the first ladder track.
Crandell
Welcome.
Frog size depends some on what era you plan to model. Small steamers, 4 axle diesels and 40'-50' cars will do fine in #4's. Large steam, 6 axle diesels and 80' cars need larger #'s. If you have plenty of space, I'd go for #6's for the smaller cars and #8' for more modern things, just to err on the side of caution.
Just my thoughts,
Richard
At our large HO scale club layout we use almost exclusively Peco Insulfrog turnouts and DCC, and none of them have ever been an issue unless someone wants to run a very short wheel base locomotive such as an 0-4-0 steamer. In the case of a locomotive like that, the Electrofrog may be a better choice; otherwise, the Insulfrog turnouts are just as good and require no special wiring.
Hi everyone, I'm new to the hobby as an adult. Had a train set a kid but haven't been around it for 20 years or so. I'm looking for opinions for the use of electrofrog vs insulfrogs in a DCC system. Any suggestions on which one is better or that you use and why. I know one has plastic frogs and on has metal frogs. Any issues with locos losing power on plastic frogs? or electrical issues with metal frogs (short outs and such) Suggested switch machines?