A lackluster NCE website

[conrail6055]

Hello all,

I've decided to make the plunge and go with DCC for my new 19x31 basement layout. I read Kalmbach's "The DCC Guide" by Don Fiehmann and came up with the tentative decision that I was going to invest in an NCE system. Given the fact this book is now dated by half a dozen years, I wanted to see what systems were now available by NCE so I went to their website. I must say, I'm thoroughly disappointed.

After reading the Kalmbach book, I was delighted to see the side by side product comparison chart that detailed  nearly a dozen different systems. That's kind of what I was expecting to see at NCE's website... all of the available DCC systems with a breakdown of what each systems capabilities were, not just an extremely high level overview! One would think, with an $850 price tag like on the system below, NCE would be inclined to provide a tad more than four short sentences to the product description.

http://www.ncedcc.com/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=15&category_id=3

I guess we need to use 3rd party resources to make informed buying decisions about the products that are out there? NCE, help me, help your bottom line!

~Kris

[rrinker]

 I don;t think anyone of the vemdors has anything like that. At least, none of the major ones - they only show the merits of their system, not the negatives about any other brand.

 A couple of palces have comparison charts, like Tony's Trains, but that one is definitely out of date and has some incorrect information. If the Kalmbach one is from a chart that appeared in MR a couple of years ago - it too is out of data and has errors.

 NCE's site hs been lacking for a long time. You have to download the product instructions get get detailed specs on the different systems. There are a lot of combos, but outside the PowerCab and the new console system, they are all varients of the same thing - PowerPro with a 5 amp booster, PowerPro with a 10 amp booster, PowerPro Radio with 5 amp, PowerPro Radio with 10 amp. The feature set other than presence of radio, or 5 or 10 amp booster, are otherwise exactly the same, there are no functional differences.

              --Randy

[tstage]

Kris,

I'll wholeheartedly agree with you that NCE could use some help on their website.  However, keep in mind that they are a small "cottage" industry out of bustling Webster, NY with a staff of perhaps 10-15 employees.  Even so, they make a VERY good product.

Tony's Train Exchange is a great resource for DCC product information and reviews.  That's where I generally go to get updated information.  The individual Yahoo! Group forums are very helpful, too.  And, you can always download manuals from the NCE website to get firsthand information about the product.

Tom

[Motley]

I agree, their site is nothing to show for, but their products are high quality. Maybe they spend more time producing and supporting these products, than spending money on a fancy website.

While Digitrax has a bit more information on each system, they don't have comparison charts.

When I did my research, I asked questions here, and also at my LHS Caboose Hobbies.

All these companies are very small they don't have but a handful of employees.

[riogrande5761]

I wouldn't expect comparison charts necessarily on a manufacturers website, although it's not unheard of.  I found more information on MB Kleins page for the PH-10R NCE set than on the page you linked.

There are plenty of other ways to get the info as exmples given above.

[conrail6055]

Thanks for the input thus far guys. I was actually surprised Randy, that the NCE site didn't even show the merits of their systems. After spending about 2 hours on the site, and not being able to determine even the basic capabilities of each system, I wasn't about to begin downloading operating manuals for each one to play "Where's Waldo" for the info I needed. 

The chart in Kalmbach's DCC book at least laid out how many locos/consists could be programmed, the number of function keys, maximum number of cabs, etc. for the various NCE, Digitrax, MRC, Lenz, etc systems. I've heard nothing but great comments about NCE which is one reason why I was leaning their way. While I can understand running a small business has its challenges, I would hope NCE invests a little time to make their website a little more info oriented as opposed to a showroom.

My continued thanks to all for your time!

~Kris

[maxman]

I agree that NCE's website is not the best.  And I believe that they are aware of that fact.  Like some of the other posters, I also have the NCE system and am very pleased.

But I have to ask....why are you looking at the 10 amp system?  If you are HO scale like most of us here, you'd probably be better off with the 5 amp PowerPro system, http://www.ncedcc.com/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=13&category_id=3, and adding bosters if necessary.  (There, saved you $150 already)

[mlehman]

Yep, I'm sure we can give you a hand here, although finding a dealer you've got a good relationship with is a very good idea. I happen to run NCE myself, so could discuss my experience.  Maxman has a good point to start, no need for a 10 amp system for HO, although maybe what you really need is a 5 amp command station and another 5 amp booster, for instance.

What might help is for you to tell us what you have planned in terms of a layout, how many locos it might need to support, will they be sound, etc. The thing with DCC is you need to get a toe in the water first to figure out what your goals are to really start making choices. A chart can't really help you with that.

BTW, once you get past the website, I think you'll find that NCE's system is really quite intuitive and straightforward to use, whatever choice in hardware you might make.

[gandydancer19]

You have received good advice by all posters.

I have NCE at home and our Club has Digitrax.  Both do the job, both are made in the USA.  My preference due to ease of use is NCE.

[riogrande5761]

BrianinBuffalo

Yup the website is not very good.  I visited Webster NY with my wife and looked around (outside) their building before the big tragedy.  NCE is right on the main drag.

What tragedy?

I lived in Rochester back in the early 90's and worked at Xerox's Webster "Salt Road" facility doing environmental work.  Blast from the past.  I didn't realize NCE was so close at the time?

[conrail6055]

Mike & Maxman,

The 10amp system caught my eye because I can shift it to my outdoor G scale if I decided down the road to go with something different in the basement. The HO set up consists of double track main with a passing siding. I have a substantial diesel facility, 6 track 8’ long intermodal yard and 15 track 16’ long freight yard, all of which can be operated without fouling the mains. The diesel facility will support a collection of around 100 locos, about two dozen of which, are sound equipped. Plans call for feeders to every piece of flex. Because I’ll have two trains running the mains with anywhere from 3-5 sound units on each, the idea of a 10 amp system seemed better right out of the gate than a 5amp system with boosters.

~Kris

[rrinker]

 5 amps is plenty for that train load in HO. Large scale, not so much.

Whatever you do, do NOT apply 10 amps directly to the HO track without breakign the layout into power subdistricts with circuit breakers. 10 amps will easily melt stuff if a loco derails and a truck twists sideways to cause a short.

 The 8 and 10 amp systems always seem like a huge bargain because they are only a little more expensive than the 5 amp systems - because the only real difference is the main output transistors or H bridge chip. But you also need to supply a power suppyl for that. 5 amp power supplies are common as dirt - both Digitrax and NCE have moved on from conventional big iron transformers to switching power supplies, so as to take advantage of the commonality - it's a typical rating for laptop power supplies. 10 amp power supplies cost a lot more. If the layout is large, and you have just the one 10 amp booster, you will need longer bus runs - and at higher current so you need to use heavier, more expensive wire. I prefer to distribute multiple smaller boosters around the layout and keep the bus runs short, the inexpensive phone cable used for the cab bus can run long distances since sbaolute voltage on the wire is not crticial, just the proper waveform for the booster to amplify is used.

          --Randy

 

[mlehman]

Kris,

The large scale thing is a little hard to cover. FWIW, I have some, too, but it's been boxed for the last decade or so as I've concentrated work in the basement. I've also been waiting for prices and technology to get more "common" so that I can install radio/battery power in my Shay and forget all about trying to keep outdoor wiring up. But that's just me.

The cautions on the tendency of 10 amp units to melt track and rolling stock are well taken.

From what you describe, I agree a 5 amp command station and 5 amp booster would be what I'd probably plan. The fly in the ointment is how your bus goes in. You could always go with a single 5 amp command station, situated at the top center of a T bus. If that doesn't have enough oomph, then you split the bus, putting the booster side by side with the command station and let each take half. That's what I have here, with some additional circuit breakers, for short management. Never had an issue with it and my locos fleet is similar, although I rarely have more than a couple of dozen at idle or running at one time, half sound, half silent.

The area we haven't covered is reversing sections. Those need management, too. I use the PSX AR1 with good results, but there are others out there that people like, too.

[conrail6055]

Mike,

I was considering 10 amps (5amp command station and a booster now as opposed to originally thinking the 10amp command station would be the best start) for the two mains & siding. Another pair of boosters for the diesel facility, and another 5amps for the freight & intermodal yards.

So you're saying a 5amp command station and 5 amp booster are adequate for what you're running which consists of a couple dozen running at one time, half of which might be sound units!? I guess that confuses me because I was under the belief that a typical sound equipped unit under power draws .75 amps. 

NCE says their PB-105 supplies 5 amps of continuous voltage, which according to them, is enough to handle "very large lashups of locomotives" and still have reserve capacity. Am I wrong with my logic though in that 6 sound units at idle draws 4.5 amps from the available 5amp power supply leaving a whopping 1/2 amp in reserve?

~Kris

[cacole]

We use the NCE 5 Amp PowerHouse Pro with tnree 5 Amp boosters for our large HO scale club layout.  We also have a RRampmeter connected only to the base unit.

Even with lashups of up to 6 P2K or Athearn Genesis locomotives, all with sound, and two separate trains within a power district, the RRampmeter hardly ever measures more than 3 Amps current draw.

[rrinker]

 Yeah, 6 sound units at idle, in HO are not going to draw 4.5 amps. Most HO locos, even with sound, top out at around .5 amp with the motor stalled. MUCH less when it is freely pulling a train. I ran 8 locos, 4 with sound, at the same time with a 2.5 amp Digitrax Zephyr. I ran out of track to put more on before I ran out of power.

 It's interesting looking at the test results boxes in Trade Topics reviews in old issues of MR. It seems there is this idea that locos in the 60's and 70's drew insane amounts of current - but most of them are around .5 amp also. A few top 1 amp fully loaded. The bigger issue is that 40+ year old loco probably has weak magenets, and TODAY it draws far more current than it did new.

                   --Randy

 

[mlehman]

Kris,

I agree with what other have indicated. No way are you going to pull 3/4 amp from each loco with sound. It may have been the case back when lots of folks ran old BlueBox motors and tried to coax sound out of such a combination that you might see that as a theoretical max you might want to allow for. But even under the worst case scenario, I doubt you have all your units in Run 8 on a 4% grade at the same time and they're most likely not all old coffee grinders on your layout either. Two 5 amp units should be more than enough to keep things humming without interruption.

[conrail6055]

Fantastic... I'll certainly sleep a little easier tonight knowing we have people in the hobby that are so quick to share experiences, advice and lend a hand. Thanks everyone! Now, for another question

From my reading, the PH Pro is a tethered system and the PH Pro-R is the wireless version. Question is, according to my DCC book, there are (or were at one time in the not so distant past) two versions of the wireless throttle; infrared & radio. I assume IR vanished and all we have now is either tethered or radio?

Love the description for whatever this thing is. Clear as mud  

http://www.ncedcc.com/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=84&category_id=3

~Kris

[tstage]

Kris,

Both NCE and Digitrax use duplex radio so that the cabs communicate with the base station over the cab bus and vice versa.  The Bachmann Dynamis uses IR and is far more finicky because it must have direct line of sight for best and consistent results.  Radio is, therefore, preferred over IR.

Tom

[maxman]

conrail6055

From my reading, the PH Pro is a tethered system and the PH Pro-R is the wireless version. Question is, according to my DCC book, there are (or were at one time in the not so distant past) two versions of the wireless throttle; infrared & radio. I assume IR vanished and all we have now is either tethered or radio?

I don't believe that NCE ever had the infrared option.  The wireless, or radio, handsets that are sold by NCE can be used as tethered handsets by simply connecting them to the UTP panel (http://www.ncedcc.com/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=69&category_id=5) that typically mounts to the layout fascia.  I believe that each radio handset comes with a coiled cord for this purpose.

[maxman]

conrail6055

Love the description for whatever this thing is. Clear as mud  

http://www.ncedcc.com/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=84&category_id=3

I think we have all agreed that the website could be made better.  That said, I've found that the use of Google gets me answers to a lot of questions.  For example: http://www.traintekllc.com/NCE-PH-Box-5A-Command-Station_Booster/productinfo/NCE-PHBOX/

[modelmaker51]

I have a PH-Pro 5 Amp  system and a 12 x 23 layout. I run two 4 unit lashups with 2 sound units in  each puiling 40-60 cars each, two branch line 2 unit lashups with sound and a yard engine or two. I have never run out of power.