Your are correct about the firt DCS100s having only 0-8 functions, I was operating from memory. Since I was paying the postage to send my two DT400 throttles to be up graded to DT402D, I paid the $50 to have Digitrax upgrade the DCS100. I only use the light (F0) bell (F1) and horn (F2) in my operations. No flashing beacons or ditch lights in my era, but with new decoders comming out, there might be somting in the future for the extra function keys.
I would also agree the great benefit of a DIgitrax system is you can upgrade by adding on and not have to replace the entire system. Except for my first DT100R, all ofny other Digitrax throttles were purchased on Ebay and sent to Digitrax to be upgraded. This was far less expensive than buying the Duplex throttles directly. In addition my new Duplex throttles work side-by-side with my older Simplex throttles.
The PR3 is a fantastic device as you can use it to program locomotives without owning any other Digitrax items by using it as a stand alone programer with Decoder Pro.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
I've come to hate the limit control range with a potentiometer, so I will never own a UT4 for my personal use. I only use my DT400 or DT402.
The iddue witht he older DCS100's is indeed functions over 8 - the original ones did 0-8 just fine, which was all the DT100 can access anyway. When the DT300 came out, it was found they didn;t go up to F12, but if you bought a new system with a DT300, it did - different firmware for the DCS100. All functions over F8 (so F9-F12, and now F9-F28) are actually handle by the throttle, not the command station - since Loconet is peer to peer, the throttle just tells the command station to send proper NMRA DCC packet for turning on F16 or whatever.
The original Zephyr only has kjeys for F-F8 on the console, but by plugging in a DT400 I got F0-F12, and plugging in a DT402 got me F0-F28. Or connecting JMRI and using a JMRI throttle or WiThrottle app, you get all the functions. The command station really has nothing to do with it, the bug that was fixed int he DCS100 was actually in how it handled the peer requests fromt he throttles to control F9 and higher.
That's why it's not so easy to find cheap older Digitrax equipment on eBay - it's never truly useless, so there's no reason to sell off the older unit to buy a new one.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I consider the DT402D a waste of money because I don't need all of the features for the cost of the throttle. Although I own two DT402D throttles, my visiting operators do not like to use them either.
Since I use a PR3 and DecoderPro for programing I don't need all of the buttons or the display of the DT402D. In my OPS sessions it is rare to make a consist during OPS, so my consists are made up using DedoderPro and a programing track prior to the OPS session. I have no problem consisting during operations with the DT100R or the DT300R or the DT402D. (You can not make a consit with a UT4D.)
For the price of one DT402D, I can buy a PR3 and a UT4D throttle...and I can use my PC with DecoderPro and PR3 as multiple Digitrax throttles.
With the new JMRI APP, you can operate wireless smart phone throttles by adding a PR3, eliminating the need to purchase a UR92 or a DT402D or even a UT4D.
I am a very satisfied Digtrax owner and user and have recommended the system to many model railroaders. I am pleased that my Digitrax system is upgradable,by adding onandnot by replacing.
riogrande5761 ... As this topic highlights, this is the slipper slope of cost ... I can't afford it all at once so like CSX points out, I may be able to make the PR1 work with an old Dell laptop.
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As this topic highlights, this is the slipper slope of cost ... I can't afford it all at once so like CSX points out, I may be able to make the PR1 work with an old Dell laptop.
I need to correct an earlier post of mine because I was getting some device names mixed up. The circuit I am using with my Zephyr is an MS-100 equivalent. The PR1 is a programmer, whereas the MS-100 is a Loconet interface. Jmri does not support the PR1, although the software that came with the PR1 might work on Windows XP. If you are handy with a soldering iron, the circuit I have is pretty simple, just three resistors and two transistors. A schematic for it is at the bottom if this page:
http://www.teamdigital1.com/support_tools.html
riogrande5761 jamnestIf you have an older DCS100, it is limited to 12 functions. You can send it to Digtrax to be upgraded to 28 functions. I sent mine in two years ago for an upgrade because I was having a throttle upgraded. As mentioned, my DSC100, while purchased around 1998, it came with the newer style screw terminals. I don't know if that means it includes the 28 functions or has to be upgraded. Others have indicated if it came with the newer screw terminals, it has the added functions. Does that sound correct to you?
jamnestIf you have an older DCS100, it is limited to 12 functions. You can send it to Digtrax to be upgraded to 28 functions. I sent mine in two years ago for an upgrade because I was having a throttle upgraded.
As mentioned, my DSC100, while purchased around 1998, it came with the newer style screw terminals. I don't know if that means it includes the 28 functions or has to be upgraded. Others have indicated if it came with the newer screw terminals, it has the added functions. Does that sound correct to you?
I don't think 12 functions for the early firmware is right. I'm pretty sure it was originally 0-8 (nine functions) which was in line with the NMRA's original DCC spec.
Later, the NMRA updated it's spec to 0-12, and that's the one and only time that Digitrax needed to update their DCS100 firmware.
But they future-proofed it with that update, by moving the functions above 8 to the throttle. The command station simply passes them along.
So if functions 9-12 work with your DCS100, it has the updated firmware and is also capable of 13-28, and potentially even higher.
You can test it with JMRI, even if you an older throttle that only supports functions 0-9.
(Another good reason to buy a DCC system that JMRI can interface with - Troubleshooting!)
When Digitrax finally came out with Duplex, I purchased a UR92 and sent both of my DT400 throttles to Digitrax to be upgraded to DT402D. While these throttles work fine. I consider them a waste of money. I have since purchased two DT4D throttles which are the first to be picked up by my guest operators. Any future throttle purchases will be the utility throttles.
Why do you consider the DT402D a waste of money? Is it that you can perform all the programming needed with the MS100 or PR3? What about just consisting several diesels together, assigning numbers to loco's etc. I've read that the DT100 is unnecessarily complicated and the DT400 makes the keystroke to doing engine assignments and consisting much easier. At present I only have an old style Radio Chief system with a single DT100R throttle. In your opinion, what would be the most cost effective throttle to allow me to at least do MUing and running?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I have been a satisfied Digitrax owner since 1998, and my DCS100 is still in use on the layout. My first Digtrax purchase included a DT100R and UR91. I had an OPS session yesterday and the DT100R still works great.
If you have an older DCS100, it is limited to 12 functions. You can send it to Digtrax to be upgraded to 28 functions. I sent mine in two years ago for an upgrade because I was having a throttle upgraded.
I still operate with DT100R, DT300R, UT4D, DT402D and JMRI Android/Iphone throttles all at the same time.
I recently upgraded from a MS100 to a PR3 for programing because my laptop does not have a port for the MS100. I use JMRI DecoderPro for programing and havent't punched CVs on a throttle for years.
When the new DT400 throttles came out, I purchased one after being convinced by other Digtrax users that I could not live without one! I later upgraded it to a DT400R. I picked up another DT400 on Ebay.
More and more of my visiting operators are choosing to run the JMRI Throttle APP (free) on their cell phone.
I would also agree that POWEREX 9.4v rechargable batteries are the way to go as when the battery voltage drops to around 7v the throttle looses contact with the wireless system.
Good point about the DT100.
Yes, mainly due to the lack of old style serial ports on most current PC's that puts the PR1 out of date, unless I use an older PC. I have an old clunker laptop which may be servicable for that if need be until later on when give in to the schwarz and get modern!
PR1 has more problems than just the serial port though. Being unbuffered, it can easily (and does) drop Loconet packets.
Saw this in person at the National Train Show, in the Digitrax booth. They had a small section of N scale track with an RDC shuttling back and forth under computer control (PC with WinLok and a PR1). There was a BDL168 doing the detecting and an SE9C driving signals. On one trip, the loco reached the end block but the computer missed the detection event, and so the loco just ran into the bumper and kept trying to run off the end. So if you are plannign to use JMRI for operating as well as programming - ditch the PR1 and get a modern buffered interface.
riogrande5761The PR-1 set I bought came with both DOS and Windows software on a 3.5" floppy along with a Wallwart power plug, wires and port. The Windows version had GUI interface IIRC. Of course the neither of my 8 year old Windows XP Dells have a floppy drive! =P Well, when it comes time to program decoders, I'll probably have to get into the 20th century!
If you've got a hardware serial port, there is a good chance you're PR-1 will work with JMRI. I don't have a PR-1, but I do have a hand built circuit that is supposed to be the equivalent, and it works fine on my Windows XP Dell laptop.
That's why I got a DT100 - to use as a utility throttle instead of a UT4, because I simply can;t stand potentiometer controls and their limited range and inability to select back and forth between runnign trains without changing speed. DT100 has encoders, so it acts just like the DT400 and DT402. Except I probably will break mine one of these days as I keep trying to click the knob to reverse, just like the DT400/402. I guess I should look for a cheap DT300.
The PR1 is pretty much out of date, it requires a real serial port and the ability to set a very specific and non-standard baud rate. Many USB to serial adpaters don;t support the odd baud rate. A Locobuffer USB will do the PC to Loconet interface, or a PR3 can be used as a standalone programmer plus a Loconet interface (not at the same time). I find my PR3 will read and write anything, even Tsunamis, which the basic DCS100 program track seems to not be able to do sometimes without buying an extra program track booster. Of course, programming from a DT402 is much easier than using the DT100, there is none of that pseudo-hex stuff for values over 99. You can dial in a cv number or twirl the left knob to get to the cv number, and twirl the right knob or key in the desired value directly - ie, if you want to set CV100=110, you select that on the screen, not CVA0=B0. Hard to beat JMRI for the more complex settings of lighting functions and sound adjustments though.
jrbernier I too have a pair of old DT100's that I had converted to DT100R throttles. They work great as Utility Throttles - I build the consist with a DT400 series throttle, 'steal' the consist with the DT100R and hand the throttle to the newbie - There are not enough buttons for him to get in too much trouble,
I too have a pair of old DT100's that I had converted to DT100R throttles. They work great as Utility Throttles - I build the consist with a DT400 series throttle, 'steal' the consist with the DT100R and hand the throttle to the newbie - There are not enough buttons for him to get in too much trouble,
Thats the plan, might as well use it as a utility throttle. Save me the cost of an addtional UT throttle down the road.
I had a PR1 in the old days - It was a DOS program - I did have it running on my old WIN98SE laptop, but it is not JMRI. A PR3 or LocoBuffer USB is the way to go to get JMRI up and running. Jim
Jim
The PR-1 set I bought came with both DOS and Windows software on a 3.5" floppy along with a Wallwart power plug, wires and port. The Windows version had GUI interface IIRC. Of course the neither of my 8 year old Windows XP Dells have a floppy drive! =P Well, when it comes time to program decoders, I'll probably have to get into the 20th century!
Good Point - I was unaware that the throttle could save multiple groups. Sort of like my cell pone saving various wireless 'hot spots'. I know that Digitrax modular clubs at shows are always negotiating 'Group #s' when they set up. If there is an NCE modular group, the entire air bandwidth can be overpowered by an NCE wireless group. I suspect there is a way around it, but I am not involved with the modular groups.
Our club has default group settings for both the UR91 & UR92, as do I at home - No problems at either location. BTW, I made mention of using POWEREX batteries - We find that they are a must for solid wireless operation. I was talking to a guy last Saturday at the Mad City show - He was having problems with his throttles even with POWEREX batteries. He was charging them in a little wall wart charger that came with some rechargeable Ni Cad's. That charger does not 'trickle' charge and he was overcharging his batteries. If you use the POWEREX batteries, spend the $30 for the correct 'Smart Charger'!.
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
jrbernier When you first turn on your DCC system, even the DT402D needs to plugged into the LocoNet so that the system knows its there.
The DT402D only needs to be plugged in to join a different duplex group(and it really doesn't have to be plugged in for that, it's just easier*). Once it has joined a group, it will automatically re-join that group when powered back up. If you only use it on one layout, then you should never have to plug it in again, unless you change the UR92 settings. If you are using the throttles at a club and at home, you should be able to configure your home UR92 settings to match the club and you should be able use the throttle at either place without ever having to plug it in(unless the club changes their settings).
rrinkerThe upgrade cost to make a DT402R into a DT402D is exactly the same as the initial upfront cost difference between the two.
According to Digitrax's online DT402 conversion form, that's not correct. To go from a DT402 to a DT402R or a DT402D is the same as the price difference, but to go from a DT402R to a DT402D cost as much as going from a DT402 to a DT402D.
I had a PR1 in the old days - It was a DOS program - I did have it running on my old WIN98SE laptop, but it is not JMRI. A PR3 or LocoBuffer USB is the way to go to get JMRI up and running.
Lots of great information and advice.
Firstly, I did mention in my first post about which DSC100 unit I have - but I'll restate it again since it wasn't clear - it was one of the first which issued with the NEW style terminals (or screw terminals as one person specified), not the old style speaker spring terminals. Based on what was said, that should have the newer firmware.
As for buying a DT402R and having it upgraded, the difference in price from my favorite online dealer is litterally a couple dollars, so even if Digitrax upgraded it for free, the postage would cost more than if I just bought the DT402D vs the DT402R. I'd just rather go with the latest and greatest and not have to pay for the upgrade. Of course that means buying the compatable receiver to use that in radio mode. For now, that may be ok as I just need to swallow the almost two hundred dollar expense and I won't need the radio ability unless I am operating on a club layout for the near term. I can test, operate a test track plugged in for now and buy the receiver later this year.
Infrared - I've heard from the early years it's just not the way to go so never considered using any throttle in that mode, thats why I upgraded my DT100 to radio back around 1998. I did do my homework back then, but have been out of the DCC loop for the past 10 years when I had to tear down my layout and put that on hold for a long time.
As for the DT100R throttle, yes, I am aware that throttle is the reason Digitrax has gotten so much bad press in the user friendliness department. The only purpose for the DT100R is simply as an extra radio "utility" throttle, not to do any consisting, programming etc.
As for programming, I got the PR1 outfit, I think it was called. It may be hopelessly out of date now?
Jim:
Thanks for putting this all together in a concise manner. I have been considering going duplex from my current simplex system but now that you have put it in perspective I think I'll wait a while longer and use the money for more rolling stock.
Joe
The DT100R and any DTxxxR throttles need to use the UR91 to talk wireless. Don't waste your time with the IR option - too many 'bodies' in the way blocking the signal. The 'simplex' throttles use the 900mHz band.
The 'duplex' throttles like the DT402D or UT4D need the UR92 receiver(2.4gHz band) to talk wireless. They all will work 'plugged' into the LocoNet(wired).
I have an 'older' DCS100 Chief with the old connector - It works fine with both the UR91 and UR92 - they are just another LocoNet device.
Now, what is the 'advantage' of having 'duplex'?
I have both a DT400R and a DT402D(factory upgraded DT100R). When you first turn on your DCC system, even the DT402D needs to plugged into the LocoNet so that the system knows its there. When I take mine down to the club I do the following:
I really have found no overriding reason to convert both of my throttles - Who knows, maybe I will be visiting another home layout and all he has is a UR91. The big advantage going forward is that ALL new Digitrax wireless starter sets come with Duplex, and in the future, they may not be able to get old 900mHz parts anymore(but you can always 'Upgrade' for $65).
Another item - Programming. If you are 'serious' about programming sound/light/speed tables - You really need to be using JMRI Decoder Pro to do that. Punching buttons is too error prone, and you want to save all the changes you made to the decoder - right?
The DT100 series are long out of production and no longer fixable, some of the parts are no longer available. I picked one up cheap on eBay to use as an extra throttle, byt frankly, once you have a DT402 you'll probably never want to touch the DT100 again. The DT100 is the source of all the "Digitrax is so hard to use" complaints all these years - just selecting a long address can be an exercise in frustration if you don't use it every day or have a cheat sheet handy.
You can certainly just get a DT402R, and later upgrade to duplex - there's no real cost penalty, which is nice with Digitrax. The upgrade cost to make a DT402R into a DT402D is exactly the same as the initial upfront cost difference between the two.
One thing to check out, if your system originally came with a DT100 - does the DCS100 have speaker terminals or the screw terminals? If it has speaker terminals, you'll want to open it up and check the sticker on the main chip to see the version - if it's the original DCS100 firmware version, it won't work with functions over F8. As far as anyone can determine, no DCS100's with the newer screw terminals were ever made witht he old firmware, and the later production units with speaker terminals, just before they switched, did get the new firmware. So, screw terminals, definitely OK, speaker terminals, you will have to check.
And Richard, if you last did any updates to your duplex stuff a year ago - there ARE newer updates, including both the throttle firmware AND the RF board firmware - the RF board firmware needs to be applied to both the throttles AND any UR92s. It fixes most every issue relateds to losing signal or not being able to aquire locos.
Hmm, reminds me, since my layout is basically down for now, I should send my DT400 in to get converted to a DT402D so I can use it at the club and stop fooling around with UT4D's.
I have both the DT402D/UR92 system and DT402R/UR91 system. I actually prefer the simplex, it seems to be more reliable in operation, or maybe it's just that the duplex operation isn't great at going both ways. It's been said that maybe some software needs upgrading, but that was done about a year ago. Another way of saying it is, if I have to plug my DT402D in for it to do everything, then why don't I just use a cheaper DT402R. AFter saying that though, since I have already bought the UR92, I'll probably buy another duplex since it's priced just a little bit more than the simplex and sometimes works fine. You probably want to shoot me now--LOL
Also, I have a throttle that drifted on the frequencies and can't use IR very easily either, so don't count on that working. For some reason the throttle keeps wanting to find a radio transmission and so won't reset to use the IR except in rare cases when I try to fool it. I also don't like the line of site of the IR for our layout. I'm sending it back this summer.
Long shot--maybe Digitrax(call them directly) will give you some type of customer loyalty trade in for the older throttle if you go with duplex??
Richard
Another option: get the DT402R to use with the UR91 you now have. Save up and get a UR92 later and have the DT402R upgraded to a DT402D. Or you have to bite the bullet and get the UR91 and DT402D. What I have is the Empire Builder with a DT400 plugged in to power up the system. I have a PR3 and decoder Pro for programming. For wire less I have a UR91 and 2 UT4R's to run the layout with. Joe
The duplex radio throttles will not work with simplex receivers in radio mode. Not only are there not any plans to make them work that way, they can not, because the two radio systems operate on different frequencies. The duplex radio throttles will work with both the UR91, as well as the UR90, in infrared mode, so you could go ahead and get the DT402D and use it in infrared and get the UR92 later so yo udon't have to spend so much money at one time.
I have a DIgitrax Chief system bought in the late 90's - the booster is one of the first to come with the new style connector which is allegedely firmware upgradable FWIW. That syste came with the DT100 throttle which i had upgraded to simplex radio DT100R and added the UR91 panel receiver. It has been in storage over 10 year but I want to get it out and start testing it for future use. Start installing decoders etc.
Since the set I have came with the lesst than user friendly DT100 throttle, I was thinking of getting the DT402D duplex radio throttle and using the old DT100 as a secondary throttle. Will the DT402D work with the UR91 receiver in radio mode? If not, is their any plans announced by Digitrax to allow the duplex throttle to work in simplex mode with the receiver? Or am I committing to having to add a UR92 by getting the DT402D throttle? It just seems for the small price differnce between the D and R versions, I should get the duplex version to have full wireless programming ability.
Comments?