As a DC operator, have seen DCC in operation and it is great if that is where you started. But to convert a large home payout with 50 engines and 1600 feet of track, a costly and time consuming task. Plus, I am somewhat put off with all of the buttons and programming to get locomotives alive. Plus, conversion can cause a huge nightmare as I wittnessed with a local large layout. Years and troubles that still require a techie to unravel.
I have looked into rail-Pro. Seems a lot simpler in control of the engines, priced similar to DCC. Am looking for comments from a Rail-Pro user on switching from DC to Rail-Pro DC and your experiences.
Thanks!
A214943 But to convert a large home payout with 50 engines and 1600 feet of track, a costly and time consuming task. Plus, I am somewhat put off with all of the buttons and programming to get locomotives alive. Plus, conversion can cause a huge nightmare as I wittnessed with a local large layout.
What?
Converting the layout should not be that complicated. You don't have to convert all your locos at once. I am sure you don't run 50 locos at the same time. DCC can be as simple as DC or as complicated as you can make it. That is the beauty of the hobby. Do as you want.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
A214943 As a DC operator, have seen DCC in operation and it is great if that is where you started. But to convert a large home payout with 50 engines and 1600 feet of track, a costly and time consuming task. Plus, I am somewhat put off with all of the buttons and programming to get locomotives alive. Plus, conversion can cause a huge nightmare as I wittnessed with a local large layout. Years and troubles that still require a techie to unravel.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. With either DC or DCC: You can make it as simple or as complicated as you want it to be.
Yes - if you already have a number of DC locomotives in your roster, conversion to DCC could be a costly one. For the sake of argument: At $15-$20 per decoder, that would come to $750-$1,000 just for motion decoders. Sound for each locomotive would drive the cost up by a factor of 5.
Programming doesn't have to be complicated either. If you are happy running all your locomotives on address "3" then there isn't really much else for you to do but to plunk your decoder-equipped locomotive down on the track on turn up the throttle. If you want to add the actual road number, programming the address is generally pretty straightforward.
As far as wiring. If you were careful about wiring your layout for DC then converting it to DCC should go fairly smoothly. When you have a large layout that was DC for a while then was converted to DCC, and there wasn't a strict wiring "standard" set it place from the get-go, it's not all that difficult to understand how that could create some real headaches. And should you add signaling or train detection to the equation, that can increase complexity for either DC or DCC.
If DC fits your needs then stick with it. I will leave your inquiry about rail-Pro for others to comment on.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
locoi1sa A214943 But to convert a large home payout with 50 engines and 1600 feet of track, a costly and time consuming task. Plus, I am somewhat put off with all of the buttons and programming to get locomotives alive. Plus, conversion can cause a huge nightmare as I wittnessed with a local large layout. What? Converting the layout should not be that complicated. You don't have to convert all your locos at once. I am sure you don't run 50 locos at the same time. DCC can be as simple as DC or as complicated as you can make it. That is the beauty of the hobby. Do as you want. Pete
Someone always says this. A layout with 1600 feet of track will require muliple boosters and lots of work to convert to DCC.
And how many DCC throttles will he need at what cost?
And this idea "you don't have to convert all your locos at once". "surely you don't run 50 locos at once".
Well maybe he does. On a DC layout of that size there is likely anywhere from 4 to 8 cabs, maybe more. 8 trains each with a three unit diesel is 24 locos to convert. Put four units on each train and that is 32 locos.
And possibly staging for a great many trains. Just 25 staged trains, each with a three unit diesel lashup for power is 75 locos to convert. Not to mention locos for power changes, yard switching or whatever.
When complete my layout will have scale miles of double track and stage 30 trains, it would easily cost me $4000 or more to convert it to DCC without any sound decoders. I have about 130 locos, none are shelf queens, I'm not a collector, they all have a job on the layout.
A good direct radio system is the only way I would consider changing to command control.
Sheldon
A layout of 1600 feet of track and easily be run on a single 8 amp Command Station as i did it for a number of years with my current layout.
I had over 2400 ft of track down and would host OPs Session twice a month with 10 plus operators.
I had 65 engines (None Sound at the time) and the layout ran great as one giant block!
I even held several 12 hour OPs Sessions with up to 40 operators and again the layout ran great with
ONE - 8 amp DCS200 Digitrax Command Station.
I wanted to see how far I could go with a single 8 amp system - and I did from 2001 to 2006.
When the Sound engines began showing up on the layout - then I had to go with 3 more 8 amp Boosters and Power manager circuit breakers.
So this thought that YOU have to HAVE Multiple Booster with 1600 ft of track etc etc is NOT necessarily true.
If someone runs a turnout then YES - the layout shuts down
BUT
The offending person gets ragged enough upon by the rest of the Operators - YOU soon learn to actually watch what you are doing instead of BSing all of the time.
It is funny how little of the BSing goes on now - they learned !
So YES - IT CAN BE DONE - but there are consequencies!
I just love these blanket statements that DCC HAS TO BE DONE This way or that way or it won't work.
Someone will always be able to show that it can be done another way.
Just as SELDON as shown us that DC isn't dead YET!
Just my Opinion!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
Doesn't Matter. It is all the same. I only have one LION, and so it does not matter how many controllers I have if I do not have an engineer to run them.
If you do not have operating sessions with four or ten operators, DC is probably best unless you are enamored of the details such as idling engine noise, lights, and horns and things. LION is not. LION cannot afford DCC, and as for engine sounds, what sounds does an R-32 make anyway. If I could make it sound line an R-9 then we might be interested.
On my first layouts, I set it up with 5 DC throttles, and each block could be assigned to one of the five throttles. But I still had only one LION, and so everything was assigned to throttle 1 northbound and to throttle 2 southbound, thus I could run two trains. One with each hand.
LION is more simple with this layout. (Yeah, Right!) All trains are automated, Lion just watches the trains run, and works on the scenery. Every 6 minutes or so, he must dispatch another train from 242nd Street, and then line the returning train back into an open platform at the station.
But then a LION is a simple animal to amuse.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
BOB H,
Agreed, without sound even a very large layout can be handled by an 8 amp command station. But as you admiited, it has pitfalls and limitations.
But even at that my price quote stands, to convert what I have to DCC would require 8 radio throttles, at least an 8 amp command station (each of my eight Aristo Train Engineers has its own 4 amp power supply), and 130 decoders.
And, as someone who does use a lot of DCC on other peoples layouts, I would never choose Digitrax because I do not like their throttles - so price up my DCC conversion in NCE or CVP products - something with buttons you can actually push one at a time and displays you can actually read.
As for how it "has" to be done, personally I laugh at all this "feeder drop every six feet", etc,etc. I have track sections 25-30 feet long with one feeder and no power or voltage problems.
I've had Railpro since January 24 of this year. It works great and is very intuitive. I have 8 locos with Railpro sound in them right now. I'm running Railpro with my Digitrax Super Chief system. Currently, my locos with Railpro sound are all Kato: AC4400, SD40-2 Mid, and SD70MAC. Converted those because they had regular DCC decoders in them. These were very easy installs and I've never installed sound before. I do have 25-26 diesels with factory sound and DCC. The full motor load test is simply easy to use for consisting. I plan on using my DCC and Railpro together. I have around 85-90 locos with DCC in them minus the 8 I've converted to Railpro so far. I've had very good motor control and sound with them. The bigger speaker you can use the better. Ring Engineering is going to have an LM-2 loco module w/o sound hopefully out within 6 months or less. I plan on using those in alot of locos down the road. I figure I don't need sound in every engine, but can still run the sound and nonsound Railpro locos together. I'm happy with my Digitrax system but thought there had to be something better out there. DCC has stagnated some over the years. I'm very glad I started the move to Railpro. They have alot more coming down the pike. I love the using HC-1 handheld. I've got medium/small hands and I have no problems with it. Downloading has been fun and I've never downloaded much before. I will be doing more Railpro sound installs when I purchase some more LM-1 loco sound modules. Remember your computer is in your hand not at the DCC command station. Much quicker interface. As far as JMRI i really don't think you need it. I use the basic DCC speed matching- 3 step and still haven't used JMRI. It is a really cool program. Just not for me right now and probably won't with Railpro. I've talked to Tim Ring at Ring Engineering 3 or 4 times and he is very customer oriented. Great customer service. I really believe Railpro will be around in the long term. I've had CVP Railcommand hard wiring 29 recievers, Digitrax Super Chief and now Railpro. It's been a great move. I know it's up to each individual to make their decision. Too each their own. Model Railroading is fun!
Patrick Waltz
bnsf80 I've had Railpro since January 24 of this year. It works great and is very intuitive. I have 8 locos with Railpro sound in them right now. I'm running Railpro with my Digitrax Super Chief system. Currently, my locos with Railpro sound are all Kato: AC4400, SD40-2 Mid, and SD70MAC. Converted those because they had regular DCC decoders in them. These were very easy installs and I've never installed sound before. I do have 25-26 diesels with factory sound and DCC. The full motor load test is simply easy to use for consisting. I plan on using my DCC and Railpro together. I have around 85-90 locos with DCC in them minus the 8 I've converted to Railpro so far. I've had very good motor control and sound with them. The bigger speaker you can use the better. Ring Engineering is going to have an LM-2 loco module w/o sound hopefully out within 6 months or less. I plan on using those in alot of locos down the road. I figure I don't need sound in every engine, but can still run the sound and nonsound Railpro locos together. I'm happy with my Digitrax system< but thought there had to be something better out there. DCC has stagnated some over the years. I'm very glad I started the move to Railpro. They have alot more coming down the pike. I love using HC-1 handheld. I've got medium/small hands and I have no problems with it. Downloading has been fun and I've nevver down much before. I will be doing more Railpro sound installs when I purchase some more LM-1 loco sound modules. Remember your computer is in your hand not at the DCC command station. Much quicker interface. As far as JMRI i really don't think you need it. I use the basic DCC speed matching- 3 step and still haven't used JMRI. It is a really cool program. Just not for me right now and probably won't with Railpro. I've talked to Tim Ring at Ring Engineering 3 or 4 times and he is very customer oriented. Great customer service. I really believe Railpro will be around in the long term. I've had CVP Railcommand hard wiring 29 recievers, Digitrax Super Chief and now Railpro. It's been a great move. I know it's up to each individual to make their decision. Too each their own. Model Railroading is fun! Patrick Waltz
I've had Railpro since January 24 of this year. It works great and is very intuitive. I have 8 locos with Railpro sound in them right now. I'm running Railpro with my Digitrax Super Chief system. Currently, my locos with Railpro sound are all Kato: AC4400, SD40-2 Mid, and SD70MAC. Converted those because they had regular DCC decoders in them. These were very easy installs and I've never installed sound before. I do have 25-26 diesels with factory sound and DCC. The full motor load test is simply easy to use for consisting. I plan on using my DCC and Railpro together. I have around 85-90 locos with DCC in them minus the 8 I've converted to Railpro so far. I've had very good motor control and sound with them. The bigger speaker you can use the better. Ring Engineering is going to have an LM-2 loco module w/o sound hopefully out within 6 months or less. I plan on using those in alot of locos down the road. I figure I don't need sound in every engine, but can still run the sound and nonsound Railpro locos together. I'm happy with my Digitrax system< but thought there had to be something better out there. DCC has stagnated some over the years. I'm very glad I started the move to Railpro. They have alot more coming down the pike. I love using HC-1 handheld. I've got medium/small hands and I have no problems with it. Downloading has been fun and I've nevver down much before. I will be doing more Railpro sound installs when I purchase some more LM-1 loco sound modules. Remember your computer is in your hand not at the DCC command station. Much quicker interface. As far as JMRI i really don't think you need it. I use the basic DCC speed matching- 3 step and still haven't used JMRI. It is a really cool program. Just not for me right now and probably won't with Railpro. I've talked to Tim Ring at Ring Engineering 3 or 4 times and he is very customer oriented. Great customer service. I really believe Railpro will be around in the long term. I've had CVP Railcommand hard wiring 29 recievers, Digitrax Super Chief and now Railpro. It's been a great move. I know it's up to each individual to make their decision. Too each their own. Model Railroading is fun!
My itching point with any one-source proprietary system is, what happens when the one source dries up and blows away.
Folks who have been around for a while can probably think of several electronic command systems, earlier than and incompatible with DCC, which showed promise for a while, then quietly vanished when the producer either rolled belly-up or moved on to other things. If, as it sounds, Railpro IS compatible with DCC, then by all means combine them. Let us know what you find out. I seriously doubt it will be compatible with Analog DC.
In support of Sheldon's earlier rebuttal of the, "You don't run fifty locos at a time," comment, I DO run just about my entire roster at one time or another during my operating 'day.' Broadway Lion and I have similar operating densities, but mine is a mixed-traffic railroad with five different types of motive power (Steam, catenary electric, diesel-hydraulic, EMU and DMU) Modifying my fleet one powered unit (or five) at a time would call for serious curtailment of the 140+ train a day schedule until it was all done, and I fail to see that I would gain ANYTHING for several thousand dollars that I could better use elsewhere.
As for locos that Railpro hasn't programmed into their system, I'm willing to wager that they don't have a single unit I run (all 1:80 scale, Japanese prototype, most still using big open-frame amp-hog motors) programmed today. So, I guess I'll just bumble along with analog DC, modified MZL system - which seems to meet my simple needs, is already installed and, more importantly, paid for.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with 1964 control technology)
Someone please help me understand this. My very, very limited knowledge of the RailPro system leads me to believe that you need some sort of receiver in the locomotive for the system to work. Looking at the RailPro FAQ page, http://www.ringengineering.com/RailProFrequentlyAskedQuestions.htm, it looks like a non-sound locomotive module is expected to have a MSRP of $49.95.
So, if all this is really true, then it seems to me that there is still a substantial cost involved to do the conversion, which was the original reason for not converting all those locos to DCC.
Maxman, yes there will be a cost involved to move to Railpro. It's up to the individual. What works for me may very well not work for you. The LM-2 module is thier list of $49.95. I've bought all my Railpro products at 25% off list. So, the LM-2 should be around $37.50 when it comes out. Remember it has 2 way communication between loco module and the handheld HC-1. Not between the DCC command station and the throttle. I''ve had my Digitrax Super Chief system since 1998. Even bought another one later. There is a difference. The 2 way communications between the loco/handheld will lead to many other features down the road and what they're already working on.
As far as sounds they are working on more as we speak. Tim Ring said the GEVO prime mover sound is next and followed by a 567 prime mover. I've told them they need to have more steam sounds. Like an articulated steam sound. It all takes time. I believe he said Railpro has been in development for around 10 years. It's a long term project. They will also be able to add features as they go because we can just download to the HC-1 handheld or to the RE Internet Access program. Tim said they have done more current diesels sounds so far because there's easy access to them as they are current production and still being used. I'm slowly going to convert my nonsound DCC equipped locos to Railpro LM-1/LM-2 as I go.
No N-scale, no JMRI, no brass: no dice.
The DCC comparison chart has several half-truths and a ton of hype. Many limitations they attribute to DCC are not limitations of DCC, just limitations of current US DCC systems (most of the advantages having to do with their touch-screen). I guess they're just ignoring JMRI and the FREE ios/android phone/tablet throttle apps.
The rationale for some of their limitations in their FAQ answers are, um, "entertaining." They claim the current technology would work for N-scale, but they want to skip over the 2nd largest and fastest growing market segment to enter smaller markets. Oh, and beware if you have brass locos.
A thorough, critical review of their FAQ and DCC comparison chart is highly recommended before purchasing their system.
Andy
A214943 As a DC operator, have seen DCC in operation and it is great if that is where you started. But to convert a large home payout with 50 engines and 1600 feet of track, a costly and time consuming task. Plus, I am somewhat put off with all of the buttons and programming to get locomotives alive. Plus, conversion can cause a huge nightmare as I wittnessed with a local large layout. Years and troubles that still require a techie to unravel. I have looked into rail-Pro. Seems a lot simpler in control of the engines, priced similar to DCC. Am looking for comments from a Rail-Pro user on switching from DC to Rail-Pro DC and your experiences. Thanks!
Sent you a PM with a link to another forum.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I was watching a video MRH did on it, needless to say I was impressed. but I'm just gonna hold out in DC like chuck and Sheldon.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader